What or who is predestinated?

[Martin]

First I must admit that I have not read all of the replies to this post. Some of the ones I have read made some good points, others not so good. However I think when we are talking about a passage we need to go to the passage itself and leave the various theories at the door.

Paul states:
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined" (vs29a)

Ok, before we can get to predestination we must deal with foreknowledge. The term simply means, "to know beforehand", so there is nothing that difficult about the term itself. Ok, what did God foreknow? Did He foreknow those who would do good deeds? Nope. Did He foreknow those who would believe? No again. So what did God foreknow? The passage is clear God foreknew "whom". That is, God foreknew individual people. It is the same as God knowing His people in time (Jn 10:27-30, etc). The passage does not tell us "what" He foreknew about them, it tells us He foreknew those (people). This is not based, nor can it be based, on anything done by the person. The Bible is clear that God's choice is not based on what is done by the person but rather based on His will (Rom 9:11, Eph 1:5-9) and His grace (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:4-5).

His knowledge of the individuals is before they come to Him, in fact Scripture teaches that it is because God has foreknown and elected a person that they come to Him (Jn 6:37, 10:27). If we look down at Romans 8:30 we see that it is those whom God foreknew and predestined that He calls. Those who are not foreknown and predestined are not called and cannot come to Christ (Jn 6:44).

So foreknowledge is God's knowledge of a person before time. It is not God looking down through time since God's choice determines who will come to Him (not visa versa). Then God predestines those individuals to be conformed to the image of Jesus (vs29b).

The fact of predestination is a very, very strong argument for eternal security. If God foreknew you, and predestined you to be like Christ, there is no way you can end up in hell. God can't make mistakes, and therefore His foreknowledge and predestined will cannot be wrong. We can go one step further and say that the Son and the Spirit simply will not allow a believer to be lost again (Jn 6:37-40, 10:26-30, Eph 1:13-14, 1Thess 5:23-24). So when a person comes to Christ and is saved, they are eternally secure. Nothing can cause that person to be lost again. Their security is not based on anything they have done, rather it is based 100% on the work of God, the will of God, and the power of God, to the glory of God.

Finally we see that those God foreknew, predestined, and called, He justifies them and glorifies them. Those God knew in eternity past He predestined to be like Jesus, those He predestined to be like Jesus He called to Himself, those He called to Himself He justified, and those He justified He has glorified. Salvation is of the Lord we are just the unworthy objects of His grace.

Is this double-predestination? No. God does not predestine anyone to end up in hell. People end up in hell because of their personal sin and because they did not come to Christ. Anyone can come to Christ, but only those God has chosen will (Jn 3:16, 6:44). Those who are not chosen continue in their sin and unbelief and end up in hell (Jn 10:26).

 

[2BHizown]

Great poetic analogy here of predestination/salvation!

http://poetry.elcore.net/HoundOfHeavenInRtT.html

Christ forgives all who come to Him in faith as He gave them that faith that brings them to Him as His Father promised!

 

[Dale-c]

Great posts, the last couple. Thanks for posting.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ps 69:28 -
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Re 3:5 -
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

There must be a proper understanding of this "book of life" in order to draw hard and fast conclusions. Clearly if one is able to be blotted out of the book it is not the type of book imagined by Calvinistic dogma. Plus, I encourage you to read up on the historical references to this book of life. Start here...beginning in 32:32...

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeexo32.htm

Hello, again, Skan.
This is my initial reaction to the reference material you gave me.
It is a scholarly work on Jewish ways, but, what it fails to consider is the fact that whereas the genealogy record of Jewish families or clans are written as one is born into the clan (therefore the absence of foreknowledge as to who will be born to whom and to which), the Lamb's Book of Life was written and populated with names of God's people, Jews and Gentile, before God even created the first star (before the foundation of the world) when those whose names were written down were not yet born. They were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.

Second, whereas those whose names were written down in the Jewish genealogy books possessed mortal lives, subject to passing away, and subject to acts which could cause their names to be written off, and perhaps maybe even subject to the mortal passions and whims of their parents, those whose names were written down in the Book of Life have eternal life, will never die, are hid in Christ, and none they can ever do will cause their names to be struck off since their guarantee is Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, whose blood in eternity washed away the sins of Enoch before the Lamb of glory was even crucified in time, the One who took their offenses unto Himself and bore the penalty for these offenses.

I think God gives a hint of this when He said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I will have compassion".

Third, those who write the names of those who will be in the Jewish genealogy books are likewise mortal human beings, subject to like passions as those whose names they write, while the One who wrote the Book of Life is Eternal, immutable, and Sovereign.
More to come, hopefully.

With all due respects.

 

[pituophis]

Yes... God says that He will "have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I will have compassion" in Romans ch.9. But doesn't He also go on to say just after this that "He hardens whom He wants to harden" (v.18)" What is this hardening? Is it not the "objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction" (v.22)?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes... God says that He will "have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I will have compassion" in Romans ch.9. But doesn't He also go on to say just after this that "He hardens whom He wants to harden" (v.18)" What is this hardening? Is it not the "objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction" (v.22)?

I think the question should be more on the "how the hardening is done" than "what is this hardening".
How does God harden the unelect's heart ?

 

[skypair]

Martin,

I know you are trying your best to make a logical analysis of "foreknow" but even most Calvinists acknowledge that it is BELIEVERS that God foreknows. If you're saying they are just "blobs of protoplasm at the point God foreknows them, then they aren't really people AND you limit God's omniscience, right?

But -- my main point -- Gal 3:22 says, "But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin that the promise BY FAITH of Jesus Christ might be GIVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE."

So here we see that God foreknew who would BELIEVE and so PREDESTINED them to repentance, FAITH, eternal life, gifts, good works, etc. (What I call the "predestination package"). And BTW, BELIEF is NOT a "work," Rom 4:5.

Both free will and Calvinist/Reformers converge at the point of BELIEF in Christ. Do you see it?

skypair

 

[Martin]

I know you are trying your best to make a logical analysis of "foreknow" but even most Calvinists acknowledge that it is BELIEVERS that God foreknows. If you're saying they are just "blobs of protoplasm at the point God foreknows them, then they aren't really people AND you limit God's omniscience, right?

==My argument is, based on the text, that God's foreknowledge is more than just "knowing what will happen". God has foreknown the person, just as He knows the person in time. It is God's calling (based on foreknowledge and predestination) that brings the elect to Christ via the Gospel.

But -- my main point -- Gal 3:22 says, "But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin that the promise BY FAITH of Jesus Christ might be GIVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE."

So here we see that God foreknew who would BELIEVE and so PREDESTINED them to repentance

==The only ones who will believe are the elect (Jn 6:37,44, etc) the nonelect will not believe but will remain under condemnation. God's election comes first, then the person comes to Christ (not visa versa). Romans 8:29 does not say that God foreknew who would be believe, for then God's election would be based on man. The Bible is clear that God's election/choice is based on His will, plan, and purpose (Eph 1:5-10, Rom 9:11). God foreknew the person (whom He foreknew) just as God knows His own in time (Jn 10:27) God knew them in eternity. Apart from election no man would be saved because nobody comes to Christ of their own accord (Rom 3:10-18).

Galatians 3:22, like John 3:16, has nothing to do with the election issue. Of course we would all agree that "the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe". That is not the issue. The issue here is "who are those who will believe". Other passages do answer that question...those the Father has given to the Son (ie...the elect).

Both free will and Calvinist/Reformers converge at the point of BELIEF in Christ. Do you see it?

==I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[webdog]

I think the question should be more on the "how the hardening is done" than "what is this hardening".
How does God harden the unelect's heart ?

...yes, how DO you harden a corpses heart?

 

[skypair]

Martin,

==The only ones who will believe are the elect (Jn 6:37,44, etc) the nonelect will not believe but will remain under condemnation.

Or is it the reverse that is true -- ONLY BELIEVERS ARE "ELECT?" Your theology says that God "elects" the unbelievers to damnation, does it not? So how can you say that only those who believe are "Elect?"

More later.

skypair

 

[Martin]

Or is it the reverse that is true -- ONLY BELIEVERS ARE "ELECT?"

==What does Jesus say?

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" Jn 6:37

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" Jn 6:44

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them" Jn 10:26-28a

What did Paul say in Romans 8?

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined...and these whom He predestined He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified"

What comes first in these, and other, verses? Man's faith or God's choice. It is God's choice that comes first (Eph 1:5-9). A person comes to faith in Christ because the Father has given them to Jesus and draws them to Jesus. They are foreknown (personally) and predestined before they are called and justified.

People become believers because of the work of God.

Your theology says that God "elects" the unbelievers to damnation, does it not? So how can you say that only those who believe are "Elect?"

==Actually I have directly stated, in this thread I believe, that there is no such thing as double predestination. Charles Ryrie has correctly stated, "Biblically, predestination is limited to the elect people and assures their present position and future destiny" (Basic Theology, 313). God elects His sheep to salvation (they come to Him and believe) while the rest of humanity (the nonelect) are allowed to remain in their sin. They are not predestined to hell. Instead they are left to do what all humans would do were it not for the work of God (Rom 3:10-18). Again I will quote Charles Ryrie...

"preterition is the passing over of those not elected to salvation...the Scriptures do contain a doctrine of preterition though there is not a decree to condemn in the same sense that there is a decree to elect." -Basic Theology, 313-314

I hold the same position on the nonelect as Ryrie does.

 

[J.D.]

Election is the cause, belief is the effect, the gospel is the means.

The order must be cause, means, then effect.

If faith is cause of election, then what is the means? I don't think you can answer that without providing some human works as a means.

Also, if belief (human origin) is the cause and election (Divine origin) is the effect, then who is sovereign? Who is it that acts upon the course of history? A: Man. Who is the responsive, dependent party? A: God

Also, if we say that faith is the original cause, and salvation is the effect, then what is the means? God? Then you have a servant-god.

 

[webdog]

==Actually I have directly stated, in this thread I believe, that there is no such thing as double predestination. Charles Ryrie has correctly stated, "Biblically, predestination is limited to the elect people and assures their present position and future destiny" (Basic Theology, 313). God elects His sheep to salvation (they come to Him and believe) the rest of humanity are alloed to remain in their sin. They are not predestined to hell. Instead they are left to do what all humans would do were it not for the work of God (Rom 3:10-18). Again I will quote Charles Ryrie...

This is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. By default, predestination of believers is predestination of unbelievers. To deny that is to deny plain common sense. I know no calvinist like double predestination, but that's the only conclusion for non believers.

 

[webdog]

Election is the cause, belief is the effect, the gospel is the means.

reverse election and the Gospel and you are correct.

The order must be cause, means, then effect.

For calvinism? Sure it has to be that order. The Bible doesn't teach that order, however.

If faith is cause of election, then what is the means? I don't think you can answer that without providing some human works as a means.

Receiving a gift is a human work? Only in reformed theology.

Also, if belief (human origin) is the cause and election (Divine origin) is the effect, then who is sovereign? Who is it that acts upon the course of history? A: Man. Who is the responsive, dependent party? A: God

Strawman...

 

[Dale-c]

Actually I have directly stated, in this thread I believe, that there is no such thing as double predestination. Charles Ryrie has correctly stated, "Biblically, predestination is limited to the elect people and assures their present position and future destiny" (Basic Theology, 313). God elects His sheep to salvation (they come to Him and believe) while the rest of humanity (the nonelect) are allowed to remain in their sin. They are not predestined to hell. Instead they are left to do what all humans would do were it not for the work of God (Rom 3:10-18). Again I will quote Charles Ryrie...

I was going to post this as well but you beat me to it
It is not inconsistant at all to say that some are predestined to salvation while all others are simply left to their own devices.
Remember, God did not come into the world to condemn the world, why?
Because the world was condemned already!

The world was already in sin and bound for hell.
He providentally saves some from that naturaly course.

 

[Martin]

This is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. By default, predestination of believers is predestination of unbelievers. To deny that is to deny plain common sense. I know no calvinist like double predestination, but that's the only conclusion for non believers.

==I disagree.

God has chosen certain people out of the lost human race to save. God is not required to do so, God is not forced to do so, rather He does this as an act of grace, and for His own purposes and will. This choice is based on nothing within those individuals nor is it based on anything they have done. God brings His chosen (elect/sheep) to Himself via the Gospel message and by work of the Holy Spirit. Those who are not chosen reject the Gospel and continue on their way. They are not forced, they are not elected to damnation, nor are they predestined to hell. They just do what all humans "naturally" do, rebel against God and reject His Son (see Eph 2:1-3). The result is that they end up in hell. The same would happen with the elect were it not for the work of God in their lives.

 

[Dale-c]

martin this is a very important issue because if we are right, it takes the "cruel" God out of the equation. If you can show a soverign God to be cruel, then you can place "benevolent man" at a point higher than he really is and trump God in the procccess.

All were guilty, God saves some. men go to hell on their own. men go to heaven by the grace of God.

 

[webdog]

God has chosen certain people out of the lost human race to save.

...meaning He has chosen the rest not to save.

God is not required to do so, God is not forced to do so, rather He does this as an act of grace, and for His own purposes and will.

Let me ask you something. If God says "If you have faith in My Son, you will have eternal life", is He forced to abide by His own declaration? Sending His Son IS the act of grace, not picking a handful of people.

This choice is based on nothing within those individuals nor is it based on anything they have done.

You have just negated faith.

Those who are not chosen reject the Gospel and continue on their way.

Why do so many "non elect" join so many false religions and cults for the very reason of being "elect"? This is hardly "continuing on their way". They are deceived as the "god of this world has blinded them".

They are not forced, they are not elected to damnation, nor are they predestined to hell.

*sigh* Man can only go to two places...Heaven, or Hell. If you have no choice to go to Heaven, Hell has been chosen for you regardless of what you want to call it.

They just do what all humans "naturally" do, rebel against God and reject His Son (see Eph 2:1-3). The result is that they end up in hell. The same would happen with the elect were it not for the work of God in their lives.

The "elect" could end up in Hell? It's not that people reject Christ, they think they can do it without Him. See the Catholic church for details...

 

[Skandelon]

:thumbs:

Great Post Webdog!

He said, "This choice is based on nothing within those individuals nor is it based on anything they have done."

I would like to see how he deals with the parable of the banqueting table where it clearly states: "Many are called but few are chosen."

He needs to read that parable and see that there is clearly something the choice is based upon. It is based upon the garments they are wearing, which obviously represent the garments of righteousness attained through faith. So much for unconditional election.

 

[Martin]

Let me ask you something. If God says "If you have faith in My Son, you will have eternal life", is He forced to abide by His own declaration? Sending His Son IS the act of grace, not picking a handful of people.

==Look, I am going by Scripture not by theory. I am not worried about human feelings or understandings. Scripture states that before someone can come to Christ the Father must give them to Christ and draw them (Jn 6:37,44). Scripture states that before a person can be called they must be foreknown and predestined (Rom 8:29-30). Scripture says that those who are not Christ's sheep don't believe (Jn 10:26). Scripture says that Christ's sheep hear His voice and follow Him (Jn 10:27). Scripture says that we were chosen (1Cor 1:26-30). I could go on. The point is that Scripture has made the doctrine of election clear. We may not know why God chooses one and not another, but then again that is none of our business (Rom 9:19-23).

Now if a person has faith in Christ they are saved (Jn 3:16). However the question here is ""who"" will have faith in the Son? The answer...those the Father has given the Son (John 6:37). Who is that? The elect, the chosen of God (2Thess 2:13, 1Pet 1:1-5).

Why do so many "non elect" join so many false religions and cults for the very reason of being "elect"? This is hardly "continuing on their way". They are deceived as the "god of this world has blinded them".

==Why do so many nonelect join false religions? Why do so many nonelect become fornicators, homosexuals, or liars? It is because they are not seeking after the True and Living God (Rom 3:10-18). They are spiritually dead (Eph 2:1-2) who live according to the flesh (Rom 8:4-8, Gal 5:17-21, 1Cor 6:9-10). That is why.

The elect were in the same condition before salvation! However God has worked in the heart of each elect person and, through the message and preaching of the Gospel, has brought them to saving faith in Christ Jesus. It is God's gift which cannot be earned (Eph 2:8-9). No human deserves it, it is given by His grace. He does not give the gift of salvation to every man. Rather, Jesus said, He gives eternal life (salvation) to those the Father has given Him (John 17:2, John 6:37,44). Those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him, in faith (John 6:37, 3:16).

Yes they are blinded, because they are perishing. They are spiritually dead.

Man can only go to two places...Heaven, or Hell. If you have no choice to go to Heaven, Hell has been chosen for you regardless of what you want to call it.

==There are two destinations that await humans. The first is what all humans deserve and, apart from the work and grace of God, is what all humans will get. That is hell. The second place is heaven. Nobody deserves it, one must be saved in Christ to get there. Yet no person of their own power (etc) will be saved. It takes the work of God in that person's life. Apart from that work no man would believe and be saved. What did Jesus say? "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44). In fact later on in the same chapter Jesus is faced with a bunch of his disciples grumbling at His teachings (Jn 6:59-65). Jesus says that "there are some...who do not believe", and John adds that Jesus knew who did not believe. Jesus then adds, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father". For what reason? Some there did not believe even though they walked with Him, indeed one would commit the final act of unbelief. A person can attend church, teach Sunday school, say prayers, and do all the right things. However unless the Father draws them to Jesus, unless He has given them to Jesus, unless they are His sheep, they will not believe and be saved.Hell has not been chosen for anyone, it has been earned by everyone. People are only saved by God's grace.

The "elect" could end up in Hell? It's not that people reject Christ, they think they can do it without Him. See the Catholic church for details...

==The elect cannot end up in hell (John 6:37-44).