What or who is predestinated?

If you want to quarrell find someone else. I am here to debate. Bless:applause:

 

2 Peter 3:16 :

He writes the same way in all his letters , speaking in them of these matters . His letters contain some things that are hard to understand , which ignorant and unstable people distort , as they do the other Scriptures , to their own destruction .

 

Are you calling me those names? If so I do not want to argue with you. Blessraying:

 

:laugh: :laugh:

Followed by...

Naw, why would you think that is insulting? :laugh:

:sleeping_2:

 

:laugh: Bedtime Good night. Bless :laugh: :applause: :applause: I going to copy and save that one. lol

 

Blobs of protoplasm" ? What in heaven's name does that expression mean in relation to God and man ? Please explain.

 

If faith is cause of election, then what is the means? I don't think you can answer that without providing some human works as a means. BELIEF. It's NOT a work (Rom 4:5) yet one must believe to be saved.

Also, if belief (human origin) is the cause and election (Divine origin) is the effect, then who is sovereign? Who is it that acts upon the course of history? A: Man. Who is the responsive, dependent party? A: God God. It's His plan. In His plan, He gives freewill to mankind. God's plan never gets derailed. He'll have a people who love and glorify Him. What makes you assume that men derail God's plan? Is it just because the people that YOU assume are "elect" might not be saved?

Also, if we say that faith is the original cause, and salvation is the effect, then what is the means? God? Then you have a servant-god. Too many "cause and effect" issues here. The original cause is God . His purpose is to create a people after His own image to spend eternity with Him -- so that would be the effect.

How He does it is to foreknow [who will BELIEVE], then predestinate them to repentance, regeneration, faith, good works, eternal life, etc. Then in the course of time, He calls, justifies, glorifies just like Rom 8:29-30 say.

As to sovereignty, if you are a husband in a Christian home, you have sovereign power. Do you make every decision? No, you actually let your children go to school where teachers exercise their sovereignty over them and where they make independent decisions (Which, BTW, is what the Bible says of the "law" -- that it is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ by our own learning and decision). Or you leave the house to go to work and your wife has to make decisions, some of which you didn't foresee. This idea that God's sovereignty makes Him a "robot master" is untenable -- in fact, really shows that the one offering it doesn't know God.

skypair

 

You must believe or you will die in your sins and where I am you cannot come. We should not forget that James is Scripture also.

James, chapter 4

7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.



James, chapter 2
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Romans 8
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve which is the first Commandment is it not?
No where does it say before the foundation of the world but that he foreknew them. He foreknew them before Salvation and then were they part of the predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
None of them were justified before, none of them were called before, none of them conformed to the image of His Son before, none of them were glorified before.
It took faith/belief in Christ for these things to happen.

So, it is belief first according to the Scriptures of Abraham. Peace, :Fish: raying:

 

If you guys want a quick "down and dirty"

The OT saints weren't "regenerated" ("born again," indwelt by the Holy Ghost) and yet they were saved. Nicodemus in John 3 is the proof -- "Can a man enter into the womb again?" He, a "Master of Iserael," had no clue what Jesus was talking about. Yet "regeneration" is the key to the "elect's" hearing the [Lazarus-like]"call" of salvation! How does Calvin answer that?

The fact is, he didn't. His entire system might have worked IF it was only the new covenant church that was being saved. But through ignorance of the other covenants of God, he missed the point that OT Israel would be resurrected postrib to the "new birth" that Nicodemus couldn't comprehend. Put simply, the OT saints only got part of the "predestination package" in their first life.

Guys, Israel's inheritance is the earth forever, even in the New Earth -- the church's is in New Jerusalem in heaven. Israel has parts of their "predestination package" still ahead of them -- resurrection, regeneration, indewelling Spirit of sanctification, spiritual gifts, body of "terrestrial glory," rapture (Rev 20:11), body of "celestail glory," New Earth.

Instead of believing Calvin's flawed paradigm, I invite you to receive the Bible's!

skypair

 

Still took the blood of Christ to complete their Salvation.

Zechariah, chapter 13
"1": In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Zechariah, chapter 14
8": And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Revelation, chapter 22
"1": And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"2": In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Peace,:Fish: :wavey:

 

Main Entry: 1what
Pronunciation: 'hwät, 'hw&t, 'wät, 'w&t
Function: pronoun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hwæt, neuter of hwA who -- more at [SIZE=-1]WHO[/SIZE]
1 a (1) -- used as an interrogative expressing inquiry about the identity, nature, or value of an object or matter <what is this> <what is wealth without friends> <what does he earn> <what hath God wrought> (2) -- often used to ask for repetition of an utterance or part of an utterance not properly heard or understood <you said what> b (1) archaic : [SIZE=-1]WHO [/SIZE]1 -- used as an interrogative expressing inquiry about the identity of a person (2) -- used as an interrogative expressing inquiry about the character, nature, occupation, position, or role of a person <what do you think I am, a fool> <what is she, that all our swains commend her , Bless:Fish:

 

It means that if you have faith and are saved by Grace then these things were predestinated to happen to you.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

It like the prodical son. The Father foreknew that his son had decided to come home so he predestinated what he would do for him and he called and justified him and also put a robe upon him to glorify him and accepted him into the home. Peace raying:

 

BB. Why would God need to predestine what He already knew man would do? If man was already going to do it anyway? He had to predestine, then man will always choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will.

 

Reformed;
Who knows the mind of God and who hath been His councelor?

I really don't understand your question, maybe you could expand on it some for me, sorry.

Question? When were you "called"? peace:Fish: