What or who is predestinated?

No. I do not hold the Holy Spirit above Christ, they are co-equal, and are One God.

However, each of the members of the Godhead, have specific functions in the salvation of the elect.

The Father chose and willed, the Son executed the Father's will and gave life, and the Spirit reveals the Son and the Father to God's children thru the quickening of the soul.

 

Show me from Scripture that these are "steps" and not in perfect unison...

 

How awful that the Creator of this universe should undertake to save sinners, leave His glory and be away from His Father with whom He has never separated, dwell in human flesh, limited by time and space when as God He is everywhere at all times, go thru all that humiliation and pain and suffering, AND THEN accomplish nothing by way of the eternal salvation of His people UNLESS faith is present ? And what kind of faith are all men able to present before the God of the Universe who requires perfection ?
A wavering faith ? An off again, on again kind of faith ? A faith that requires signs and wonders ? A faith that asks for proof ?

No, I don't think so.

The God of the Universe accomplished without one iota of a doubt what he came here to do, the very reason why His name on earth is Jesus, 'for He shall save His people from their sins'. (Matthew 1:21).

He saved His people from their sins, apart from their faith, apart from their cooperation, apart from anything they did or do.

You quote Scripture and take it out of context. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. About whom was this spoken of ? Why did the speaker say this ? What was he trying to accomplish ? Was he talking about the eternal salvation of those to whom faith will come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ? Or was he talking about God's people caught up in the ignorance of Judaism.

Yes. And a thousand times yes. And this is the reason why no one should prejudge the eternal standing of anyone, because just as God 'is able to raise of these stones children to Abraham', so is He able to quicken the soul of His child, even at the last second of death, because regeneration belongs to God, just as salvation is OF the Lord.

I submit that if you were to be asked, "A Christian who backslid, and lived backslidden up to the point of death, will he go to heaven" , that your answer will be Yes. What makes your answer yes ? The work of Christ which stands alone and apart from any cooperation of the sinner, or the work of Christ and the sinner's having appropriated such salvation by receiving Christ as Savior.

i suspect your answer will be the latter.

 

Excuse me ?

 

Wow, faith is not a necesstiy. :tear: I would venture to say that many calvinists probably would not agree with you on this.

Of course it would be yes, that's what the Bible teaches. Justification is an event, not a process. Once justified, you are sealed. Period.

 

What you think doesn't matter, it's what God says. Faith is required whether you want to believe that or not ("...by grace...through faith). God sets the standards.

 

Excuse me, what? You outlined your very specific steps in salvation, now back it up. Show that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit work apart from each other in salvation...from Scripture.

 

He didn't say they work apart from each other. He said they have specific functions. They work in perfect concert to accomplish man's redemption.

 

So you agree The Trinity works in unison?

 

I said in concert. Why are you misquoting me? Maybe it's time to close this thread. We're trifling about words.

 

To not have faith would be to not even know there was a God much less know that you had sinned against Him. Why does everyone seem to excuse the book of James. Does it not matter at all or does it go against your beliefs. peace:Fish:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "concert" in regards to this discussion. No kidding The Godhead is in agreement in regards to soteriology, but you didn't answer the questio: Do the Godhead work in unison?

It's widely taught that the Holy Spirit regenerates then man can respond to the Gospel. Is this what you mean by "concert". There's still an order that follows, what is it?

 

The Father chose, the Son redeemed, the Holy Spirit regenerated. These three are ONE in purpose, ONE in covenant. None of them works against the will of the other.
And you, dear webdog, are muddying up the waters by attributing to me as fact what you think I mean.
Where did I say "these are the steps in salvation" ?
That is YOUR conclusion, not mine.
Think of it as a rescue plan, with each person of the Godhead doing His part in the battle in accordance with the overall objective of rescuing prisoners.
The last part of the plan is to revive the prisoners, and that is the function of the Holy Spirit. BUT He cannot and will not revive any that has not been designated for rescue by the Father, and which have not been brought out of prison (redeemed) by the Son.
The prisoners have nothing at all to do with the execution of the plan, they are simply beneficiaries.

 

No Calvinist, or adherent to the Doctrine of Grace, in this board is excluding the Book of James, BB.
However, to insist that faith is a qualifier in order for the work of Christ to be truly effective for the recipient is something that I at least, debate.
First, "faith without works is dead'' refers to living out what you confess by mouth and know to be godly and good.
However, working out what you believe, in other words, walking the walk,and talking the talk, needs instruction and instructors first.
When the elect hears the gospel, then they acquire faith from God to turn from idols to the living God, to turn from their wicked ways to the Godly ways, to walk the narrow way and shun the broad way.
However, even without human preachers, God is able to work out His will on His people both to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:16)
Christ's redemption of His people did not have as a prerequisite to it their faith in Him, their knowing Him, their obedience to Him.
They are redeemed because it is Christ, not them, who is Faithful and True.
He redeemed them because it was the Father's will, and because He is a merciful God, and He redeemed them for eternity , not for this earth, not for this plane called time which shall soon pass away.
Faith and good works are rewarded here in time, just as sin and disobedience is chastised here in time.
In heaven and in eternity, Christ is His people's reward.
peace.:flower:

 

faith

Seems to play a heavy role from the Scriptures I find in the Bible.

John 8:
"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(This one is a killer, seems like a prerequisite to me!)


Luke, chapter 7
50: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace


Hebrews, chapter 11

6": But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James, chapter 4

7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James, chapter 2
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ephesians, chapter 3

"17": That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,



Hebrews, chapter 11

"4": By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

"6": But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"7": By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

"8": By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

"9": By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:


Philippians, chapter 3


"9": And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Peace :Fish:

 

BB. Using your favorite translation... this seems to say that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Do you think we are the author of our Faith? Hebrews 12
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

 

Do you deny this Scripture or change it in any way?

John 8:
"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Why do you jump past part of the Scripture all the way to "the author"?
The author and finisher of our faith is what He did if we will have faith in Him. And here is how He is the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In other words if Jesus had not of suffered and died for us we could have all the faith in the world and it would not accomplish us nothing, therefore He is the author and finisher. Peace:Fish:

 

:thumbs: I love you brother.

 

BB. I see you edited your post so now I feel compelled to reply. Of course I do not deny any scripture. I believe all scripture is true and reliable. God would not be just if he didn't tell sinners what He expected of them. This verse of scripture has nothing to do with why believers have faith. This is a command and if people do not respond then they are guilty. Thats it simply. I know I can debate with you till i'm blue in the face... that is why I simply told you "I love you brother". You are set upon believing that you are the author of your faith... I've followed your posts for quite a while, and have kept quiet because I learn a lot more that way. If you feel better depending upon yourself for faith and perseverance... God bless you! Its such a relief to know that for myself... Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. I can have confidence in knowing He is in control of my life... and guess what... that makes me even more responsible. Grace and peace
Edited to add...... who was Jesus talking to in John 8? Would God be just if He didn't tell sinners what He expected of them?

 

BB. One problem is that we pick out a scripture, bring it out of the context is in, and then apply it to all.
For example, who was Jesus talking to when He said "Ye shall die in your sins" ?
Obviously, they were not His disciples, nor the crowd that were gathered round Him and followed Him wherever He went, either to be fed, or to witness His miracles.
He was addressing the religious of His day, to whom He also previously said, "Ye are of your father, the devil".
Nowhere in the Bible is faith a prerequisite to eternal salvation, or the salvation from the penalty of sin which is eternal separation from God.
Faith is prerequisite to timely salvation, though.
Now you're not going to like that, and indeed there are those even among my people, the Primitive Baptists, who do not like that either, but, mainly because they are double and/or absolute predestinarians.
Let's chill out a little and allow me to use an example. Now, this may not be the perfect example, but, at the moment, this is what I can think of despite my diabetically clouded brain.
You are as familiar with the story of Tarzan as I am, I suppose ?
Well, we know that this apeman who grew up thinking he was an ape, behaving like an ape, living like an ape, was actually the son of a nobleman in the far shores of England.
His behaving so and all did not negate the fact that he was of noble blood, did it ?
So, one day, his relatives brought him home, to this palatial residence.
Well, somebody had to teach him that those automobiles are not going to hurt him, that the chair he is to sit on properly will not fold up on him, that a nobleman ought to dress like a nobleman, use fork and knife, and chew slowly like a civilized human being.
Call all of those gospel instruction on gospel living.
If he obeys these instructions, he exercised faith and trust on his kinsman who sent him his teachers.
The point is that whether or not he was brought from the jungle to the city, whether or not he learned all those, or whether or not somebody teaches him, he is still a nobleman, albeit living strangely in a faraway land.
Faith is needed to turn from idols to the living God, especially in the context of the times in which the writer wrote those words, when religion was mixed with sensuality.
Faith is needed to believe that the carpenter nailed to the cross is a worthy Lord, if and when the good news comes to the elect child of God.
That is what Paul was saying when he said "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God' in reference to those still living like apes in the jungles of Judaism to whom Paul wanted to bring the gospel.
However, the eternal salvation of His people is hinged on simply the benevolent, sovereign will and decree of God, and at no time are we to add anything else to it.
The salvation of His people is only because of the Faithfulness of the Savior and His obedience to the Father, absolute, sovereign grace, plus or minus nothing.
What I hear you saying is that the salvation of the sinner is dependent on Christ's finished work PLUS his inherent faith !
Now, what are you going to do with those who by virtue of mental challenges are unable to believe and therefore exercise faith ?
What are you going to do with babies who are unable to exercise faith ?
Old questions I understand, but, I think valid.