What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

[The Biblicist]

Regeneration of the 120 members in Acts 1 occurred BEFORE Pentecost as regeneration was inseparable from gospel conversion since Genesis 3:15. Proof? Ezekeil 44:7

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

1. These were not merely uncircumcised IN FLESH but in addition were also uncircumcised IN HEART.

2. Circumcision in heart is a synonym for new birth in both the Old and New Testaments (Col. 2:11-12) as it is the cutting off of the fleshly nature.

3. They were rebuked for allowing UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART entrance into God's house not merely uncircumcised in flesh.

4. God could not possibly rebuke them or condemn them for something they did not understand or something that had no existence.

5. "uncircumcised in heart" can only be understood by its contrast "circumcised in heart" which is taught in the Old Testament by the Prophets.

6. Unlike Nicodemus, Ezekiel knew that a "circumcised heart" was a "new heart" that must be given by God - Ezek. 36:26.

7. Unlike Nicodemus, Moses knew that God must GIVE a new heart in order for individuals to "perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear" or no obedience to God was possible - Deut. 5:29; Deut. 29:4.

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in flesh" to enter God's House, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in flesh" to enter.

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in heart" to enter God's house, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in heart" to enter.

To check the circumcision of either is an intimate action. To check if someone is circumcised in flesh demands intimate revelation. To check if someone is circumcised in heart demands intimate revelation by profession and fruit inspection.

All prophets preached the gospel of Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Isa. 53) and therefore all men could be questioned about their profession of faith in that gospel.

 

[Van]

Van, you need to provide scripture. Where does it say that the OT saints were not born again, how could they be called "perfect" (Job) or "righteous" (Lot)

Even today those who are born again are "babes" in Christ and in that technical aspect they are not "perfect" (mature).

Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Also you should give an acceptable rebuttal to the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus. "Fiddlesticks" is an oblique ad hominem not a rebuttal.

Pointing out the ellipsis in the Galatians passage is an acceptable but not convincing rebuttal argument (IMO).

HankD

Hi HankD, you need to provide scripture where it says OT Saints were born anew.
Where in Job does it say any OT Saint was perfect? Nowhere.
Now you deny that born anew believers are made perfect in Christ!! Hebrews 12:22-24
Born anew believers are made perfect, i.e. faultless, flawless, with regard to any burden of sin. But we still need to grow in knowledge of the Truth, and become more Christ-like.
There is a difference between being "righteous" and being "perfectly righteous" Only by the blood of Christ are we made holy and blameless and perfect. Lot as all OT Saints had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

To return to the obvious:
1) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints went to the third heaven when they died. NT Saints go to the third heaven, for to be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.
2) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were regenerated, born anew, united with Christ, made perfect, etc. They had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
3) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were indwelt, sealed in Christ forever. Christ did not sent the Helper until about 50 days after His death and about 10 days after His ascension.

 

[The Biblicist]

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in flesh" to enter God's House, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in flesh" to enter.

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in heart" to enter God's house, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in heart" to enter.

To check the circumcision of either is an intimate action. To check if someone is circumcised in flesh demands intimate revelation. To check if someone is circumcised in heart demands intimate revelation by profession and fruit inspection.

All prophets preached the gospel of Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Isa. 53) and therefore all men could be questioned about their profession of faith in that gospel.

Van and others that hold his view does not believe that peace, joy, faith, longsuffering, patience, etc. are FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT because all the Old Testament saints where characterized by these very same fruit things.

One cannot have these fruit without having the Spirit as they are "fruit OF the Spirit" or fruit that is produced by the Spirit, just as one cannot have apples without the apple tree as they are fruit produced by the apple tree. Where there is no apple tree there are no apples and where there is no indwelling Spirit there is internal production of these character fruit.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


To "walk IN THE SPIRIT" is to manifest this character fruit and that is what it means to "walk" with God. The Old Testment saints "walked" in all these character fruits of the new inward man as the flesh cannot produce the fruit "OF THE SPIRIT."

Isaiah said there is no peace for the wicked but the righteous have inward peace - the fruit of the indwelling Spirit as the flesh cannot produce it.

David had the JOY of the Lord but the wicked have no such joy, because it is a fruit that the flesh cannot produce - it is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit.

The Saints walked by FAITH (Heb. 11) but the wicked do no walk by faith and cannot because "faith" is the fruit of the Spirit and the flesh cannot produce the fruit OF THE SPIRIT.

 

[The Biblicist]

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Tranfiguration BEFORE Pentecost and thus where Elijah went "INTO HEAVEN" so Moses also went as they both appeared together.

David went to Heaven:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. He is "CONTINUALLY WITH THEE"
2. Only two possible spheres are mentioned "in heaven" versus "upon earth."
3. Here on earth the Lord will "guide me" and "AFTERWARD receive me TO GLORY"

Only an agenda driven ideologist would deny this and he must EXPLAIN IT AWAY.

David explained his death as FLYING AWAY not GOING DOWNWARD:

Ps 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I I fly away, and be at rest.


Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

When David considered the two most extremes there was only "heaven" and "hell" but no mention of any kind of Baptist/Catholic purgatory for the saved.

John 3:13 only denies any man has gone to heaven and come back to tell about heavenly things. Even after Pentecost Paul was caught up to the third heaven but was commanded not to reveal what he saw.

Those who deny spiritual union/sealing/indwelling/new birth prior to Pentecost do not even understand the baby essentials of salvation. The fall did not occur after Pentecost and neither did the salvation from the consequences of the fall begin after Pentecost. The problem of sin is INTERNAL (spiritual) and so is its solution and Biblical salvation begins internally and concludes external physical. The internal problem of sin is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God who is LIFE, who is LIGHT and who is RIGHTEOUSNESS. When Adam sinned, his spiritual condition was NO DIFFERENT than yours. The same solution to resolove his internal state of spiritual separation from God is the same for you. You must be brought into spiritual union with God (life/light/righteouensss) or you are still spiritually DEAD in spiritual DARKNESS and without spiritual RIGHTEOUSNESS. Spiritual indwelling is being made spiritually ALIVE and brought into spiritual LIGHT and having the moral image of God restored "righteousness and true holiness" internally. That spiritual union IS indwelling and the Spirit IS the seal of that union/life/light/righteousness.

Those who live in their little theological dream worlds, out of touch with reality ignore that indwelling sin is not a Post-Pentecost reality but the reality of the fall and the cause of spiritual separation from God/life/light/righteousness then and now. The only possible way that pre-Pentecost saints to be saints, to be righteous, to have spiritual enlightenment, to walk by faith (Heb. 11) is by reversal of their spiritual separation from God.

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. The Lord is CONTINUALLY with David

2. "Thou shall guide me with thy counsel" is elsewhere described by David to be ON EARTH - Ps 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

3. So "afterwards" means after death

4. After death he is received "INTO GLORY" - Glory is elsewhere defined by David to be in the THIRD HEAVEN where God's throne dwells above the created "heavens" -


Psa. 8:1O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Isa 63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?



4. David in the this very context defines "glory" to be "in heaven" where God dwells - the third heaven.

5. David is explicitly stating that the Lord will be with him CONTINUALLY on earth and after death he will be received into heaven where God's glory abides above the heavens.

 

[Van]

Talk about yet another outrageous mischaracterization, I believe in the Word of God, every word which includes Galatians 5:22.

The issue is not that the Holy Spirit did not come upon OT Saints, allowing them to walk in the Spirit. The issue is they were not born anew, united with Christ, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Talk about yet another outrageous mischaracterization, I believe in the Word of God, every word which includes Galatians 5:22.

The issue is not that the Holy Spirit did not come upon OT Saints, allowing them to walk in the Spirit. The issue is they were not born anew, united with Christ, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit coming "upon" a person refers to POWER and GIFTING in both Testaments. The coming of the Spirit "upon" a person NEVER is described by fruit characteristics but with POWER or GIFTS for accomplishing a calling or task.

The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the regenerated character or "inward man" created "in righteouness and true holiness" being "put on" in the outward man.



The "seal" IS THE SPIRIT - 2 Cor 1:21-22

 

[The Biblicist]

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. The Lord is CONTINUALLY with David

2. "Thou shall guide me with thy counsel" is elsewhere described by David to be ON EARTH - Ps 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

3. So "afterwards" means after death

4. After death he is received "INTO GLORY" - Glory is elsewhere defined by David to be in the THIRD HEAVEN where God's throne dwells above the created "heavens" -


Psa. 8:1O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Isa 63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?



4. David in the this very context defines "glory" to be "in heaven" where God dwells - the third heaven.

5. David is explicitly stating that the Lord will be with him CONTINUALLY on earth and after death he will be received into heaven where God's glory abides above the heavens.

Saints went to the third heaven after death prior to the cross - see above evidence.

 

[The Biblicist]

Regeneration of the 120 members in Acts 1 occurred BEFORE Pentecost as regeneration was inseparable from gospel conversion since Genesis 3:15. Proof? Ezekeil 44:7

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

1. These were not merely uncircumcised IN FLESH but in addition were also uncircumcised IN HEART.

2. Circumcision in heart is a synonym for new birth in both the Old and New Testaments (Col. 2:11-12) as it is the cutting off of the fleshly nature.

3. They were rebuked for allowing UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART entrance into God's house not merely uncircumcised in flesh.

4. God could not possibly rebuke them or condemn them for something they did not understand or something that had no existence.

5. "uncircumcised in heart" can only be understood by its contrast "circumcised in heart" which is taught in the Old Testament by the Prophets.

6. Unlike Nicodemus, Ezekiel knew that a "circumcised heart" was a "new heart" that must be given by God - Ezek. 36:26.

7. Unlike Nicodemus, Moses knew that God must GIVE a new heart in order for individuals to "perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear" or no obedience to God was possible - Deut. 5:29; Deut. 29:4.

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in flesh" to enter God's House, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in flesh" to enter.

They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in heart" to enter God's house, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in heart" to enter.

To check the circumcision of either is an intimate action. To check if someone is circumcised in flesh demands intimate revelation. To check if someone is circumcised in heart demands intimate revelation by profession and fruit inspection.

All prophets preached the gospel of Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Isa. 53) and therefore all men could be questioned about their profession of faith in that gospel.

 

[HankD]

Where in Job does it say any OT Saint was perfect? Nowhere.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


HankD

 

[HankD]

Hi HankD, you need to provide scripture where it says OT Saints were born anew.
Where in Job does it say any OT Saint was perfect? Nowhere.
Now you deny that born anew believers are made perfect in Christ!! Hebrews 12:22-24
Born anew believers are made perfect, i.e. faultless, flawless, with regard to any burden of sin. But we still need to grow in knowledge of the Truth, and become more Christ-like.
There is a difference between being "righteous" and being "perfectly righteous" Only by the blood of Christ are we made holy and blameless and perfect. Lot as all OT Saints had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

it's called positional perfection.

Somehow I feel that you knew what I meant. Are you perfectly sinless Van?

To return to the obvious:
1) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints went to the third heaven when they died. NT Saints go to the third heaven, for to be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.

There was no revelation to the OT believers that there was a third heaven.
The Hebrew for "heaven" is HaShamayim which is dual (two), the third heaven is a NT revelation.

2) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were regenerated, born anew, united with Christ, made perfect, etc. They had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
3) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were indwelt, sealed in Christ forever. Christ did not sent the Helper until about 50 days after His death and about 10 days after His ascension.

You still need to give your rebuttal to the fact that Jesus expected Nicodemus (an Israelite) to know what the new birth was all about and that there were those already around who were born of the Spirit.

John 3
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

2 Chronicles 15:17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

HankD

 

[Van]

The Spirit coming "upon" a person refers to POWER and GIFTING in both Testaments. The coming of the Spirit "upon" a person NEVER is described by fruit characteristics but with POWER or GIFTS for accomplishing a calling or task.

The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the regenerated character or "inward man" created "in righteouness and true holiness" being "put on" in the outward man.

The "seal" IS THE SPIRIT - 2 Cor 1:21-22

Three assertions, all mistaken, false and erroneous.

If a person walks in the Spirit, they exhibit godliness, in both the Old and New Testament.

We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, who indwells us forever. This did not happen to the OT Saints until after Christ died.

When an OT Saint walked in the Spirit, he or she would exhibit the "fruit of the Spirit" characteristics, i.e. joy, love, kindness, etc. This in no way indicates they were regenerated, made perfect, united with Christ, made alive, born anew, etc. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died to receive these blessings.

 

[The Biblicist]

Three assertions,.

Yes, but the difference between my "assertions" and your "assertions" is that I have backed up mine by explicit clear Biblical texts whereas you provide NOTHING in this response but your "assertions" which are meaningless because they are based upon NOTHING but your opinion.

1. I said the Holy Spirit IS the seal and gave textual based evidence - 2 Cor. 1:21-22

2. I said the Spirit coming "upon" is both a Old and New Testament act of the Spirit (Acts 8:14; etc.).

3. I said that the Spirit coming "upon" refers to EMPOWERING and EQUIPPING to fulfill a role or task in BOTH TESTAMENTS - Acts 8:14-17;

4. I gave indisputable evidence of pre-cross regeneration (Ezek. 44:7; Jn. 3:3-11) and the post I gave five explicit textual based reasons for this referring to regeneration in Ezek. 44:7 you have NEVER responded to.

In other words, Van, you PROVIDE nothing but hot air EMPTY of substance but FULL of bias, opinion and your own agenda.

 

[Jedi Knight]

In other words, Van, you PROVIDE nothing but hot air EMPTY of substance but FULL of bias, opinion and your own agenda.

You can lead some to the truth but cannot make them think.:type:

 

[Van]

It seems personal attacks, the use of fallacy, are all the opponents have to offer.

Here is what I said:

We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, who indwells us forever. This did not happen to the OT Saints until after Christ died.

Does this dispute that the Holy Spirit seals us in Christ as a pledge? Nope.

Indwelling, being sealed in Christ forever with the Holy Spirit is the issue, and the OT Saints were not sealed in Christ until Christ died.

No evidence was presented for pre-cross regeneration!!! Knowing that one must be born anew from OT scripture does not equate with being born anew!! Good Grief.

 

[Van]

Where in Job does it say any OT Saint was perfect? Nowhere.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

HankD

Hi HankD, I see I was mistaken, in error, and just wrong in my assertion. Sorry about that!

The word translated perfect is also translated (in NASB) as blameless, and so it would seem to indicate Job was sinless. But I do not think that would be correct. In order to be "made perfect" one must be washed with the blood of Jesus. Now if you hold the view that Job was without blemish, let me know. My view is he also had to wait to be made perfect with all the other OT Saints.

 

[Van]

You still need to give your rebuttal to the fact that Jesus expected Nicodemus (an Israelite) to know what the new birth was all about and that there were those already around who were born of the Spirit.

John 3
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

2 Chronicles 15:17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

I gave a rebuttal to the idea Jesus expected Nick to know you have to be born anew. That is not the issue. The issue is were any OT Saints born anew before Christ died! And the answer is no.

In John 3:8, it does not say anyone had been born of the Spirit, it gives characteristics for those born of the Spirit.

HankD, you are playing games with your refusal to define heaven as the abode of God, where Jesus is at this very moment! The OT Saints did not go there, they went instead to Abraham's bosom. If they had been made perfect, born anew, regenerated, they, like NT Saints would have gone directly to be present with Jesus in heaven.

My answer for Asa is the same as for Job, they were upright men of integrity, but were not sinless, and therefore needed to be "made perfect" by the blood of Christ. Thus Asa too had to wait in Abraham's bosom.

 

[The Biblicist]

You can lead some to the truth but cannot make them think.:type:

Yeah, it is like talking to a parrot, just repeats the same nonsense without any evidence whatsoever, while completely ignoring and then denying all the detailed evidence placed squarely in front of his nose. - hopeless!

 

[HankD]

I gave a rebuttal to the idea Jesus expected Nick to know you have to be born anew. That is not the issue. The issue is were any OT Saints born anew before Christ died! And the answer is no.

In John 3:8, it does not say anyone had been born of the Spirit, it gives characteristics for those born of the Spirit.

That seems unlikey Van as the verbs are present tense (wind blows) and the noun is a perfect participle (very one that is born of the Spirit).

a perfect participle after a present tense verb usually means something that has been happening all along.

This is how Young's literal translation renders this passage:

John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
...
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

HankD, you are playing games with your refusal to define heaven as the abode of God, where Jesus is at this very moment! The OT Saints did not go there, they went instead to Abraham's bosom. If they had been made perfect, born anew, regenerated, they, like NT Saints would have gone directly to be present with Jesus in heaven.

Look above to see where Jesus said people went having been born again - The kingdom of God (Abraham's bosom is part of the kingdom of God).

Again HaShamayim is the dual heaven and IMO the third heaven is the eternal dwelling place of God where no created being could go until Jesus prepared it for them.

My answer for Asa is the same as for Job, they were upright men of integrity, but were not sinless, and therefore needed to be "made perfect" by the blood of Christ. Thus Asa too had to wait in Abraham's bosom.

Van we were made positionally perfect when were saved. Yet we still sin, our goal is to mortify the flesh until we are "perfect" (mature) in Christ, we won't know our positional perfection until we leave this flesh behind.

Van How could Enoch be pleasing to God and taken if he were still in the flesh with an unclean heart?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

The church of Christ is completely and entirely a New Testament institution that Christ built in his personal ministry BEFORE Pentecost. He "set in" the church the apostles BEFORE Pentecost (1 Cor. 12:28; Mk. 3:12). Its ordinances were administered BEFORE Pentecost (Lk. 7:29-30; Mt. 26:12-30). It's disciplinary authority and congregational form of government was established BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 18:15-20). It was Commissioned twice BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 10; 28:19-20). It was regularly and habitually assembling under Christ as its head BEFORE Pentecost (Acts 1:21-22). It assembled in business meeting for selection of a new church officer BEFORE Pentecost (Acts 1:12-28).

It was empowered, indwelt and "added" unto on Pentecost.

It is entirely a New Testament institution in regard to its origin or "foundation" which was not composed of Old Testament prophets or saints but "first apostles, secondarily prophets" of New Testament calling (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28). It's government, ordinances, officers and members were all New Testament in origin.

Regeneration of the 120 members in Acts 1 occurred BEFORE Pentecost as regeneration was inseparable from gospel conversion since Genesis 3:15. Proof? Ezekeil 44:7

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

1. These were not merely uncircumcised IN FLESH but in addition were also uncircumcised IN HEART.

2. Circumcision in heart is a synonym for new birth in both the Old and New Testaments (Col. 2:11-12) as it is the cutting off of the fleshly nature.

3. They were rebuked for allowing UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART entrance into God's house not merely uncircumcised in flesh.

4. God could not possibly rebuke them or condemn them for something they did not understand or something that had no existence.

5. "uncircumcised in heart" can only be understood by its contrast "circumcised in heart" which is taught in the Old Testament by the Prophets.

6. Unlike Nicodemus, Ezekiel knew that a "circumcised heart" was a "new heart" that must be given by God - Ezek. 36:26.

7. Unlike Nicodemus, Moses knew that God must GIVE a new heart in order for individuals to "perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear" or no obedience to God was possible - Deut. 5:29; Deut. 29:4.

Van thinks that merely asserting that the above evidence is wrong makes it wrong but the above evidence has never yet been answered by anyone.

 

[The Biblicist]

God IS Light
God IS Life
God IS righteous

In both Testaments Spiritual separation from God is due to SIN - Isa. 59:2/Eph. 2:1


To be SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD is to be separated from LIGHT and LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS. These three separated conditions is the description of the spiritual state of the fallen or unregenerated man:

Having the understanding darkened, [NO LIGHT] being alienated from the life of God [NO LIFE] through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness [NO RIGHTEOUSNESS] with greediness.


This spiritual condition originates with the fall of man in the Garden (Rom. 5:12-19) not with Pentecost. This is the state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God due to sin not a condition invented since Pentecost.

The only possible solution to this SPIRITUAL STATE OF SEPARATION from LIGHT, LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS is SPIRITUAL UNION with Life, Light and righteousness (God). That act of spiritual union is called QUICKENING because it reverses the state of spiritual death to spiritual life. It is called WASHING OF REGENERATION AND RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT because it reverses the spiritual state of ALL UNCLEANESS to "righteousness and true holiness" (Tit. 3:5 with Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). It is called TRANSLATION FROM OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS INTO THE KINGDOM OF LIGHT because it verses the spiritual state of DARKNESS to the Spirit state of LIGHT.

The fallen spiritual state of separation from LIGHT, LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS makes it IMPOSSIBLE for any fallen man from Adam to the last man born on earth to serve or please God UNTIL that spiritual state of DARKNESS, DEADNESS and UNCLEANESS is reversed by SPIRITUAL UNION with LIGHT,LIFE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Hence, this reversal is expressed as:

1. "you hath he QUICKENED who were DEAD" - Eph. 2:1 - LIFE

2. "As God command the LIGHT to shine out of DARKNESS" - 2 Cor. 4:6 - LIGHT

3. "created in righteousness and true holiness" - Eph. 4:24 - RIGHTEOUSNESS


This is equally true of Old Testament Saints

God IS Righteousness - Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: - Psa 4:1

God IS Light - The LORD is my light - Psa. 27:1

God IS Life - the God of my life - Psa. 42:8 - For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. - Psa. 36:9; - Ps 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

David says that quickening precedes calling upon thy name.


IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THE SPIRITUAL FALLEN STATE OF MAN IS DESCRIBED AS A STATE OF SPIRITUAL DARKNESS; DEADNESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

1. Unrighteousness - There is none righteous no not one - Psa. 14:1 as is in New Testament - Rom. 3:10-11

2. Darkness - Ps 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.


3. Death - Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. - Isa. 50:10
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. - Isa. 42:7

Ps 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
- Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God IS spiritual separation from LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS and no human being can serve or please God in that SEPARATED SPIRITUAL STATE.

SPIRITUAL UNION with God IS LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHEOUSNESS and the act of bringing fallen man from the separated spiritual state of DARKNESS/DEADNESS/UNLCEANESS to the spiritual state of LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS is quickening (Life) effectually calling out of darkness into light (Light) washing of regeneration and renewing by the Spirit (RIGHTEOUSNESS)


To be IN the SPIRITUAL STATE of DARKNESS/DEADNESS/UNCLEANESS is to be "in the flesh" as the works of the flesh are characterized by such attributes as DARKNESS/DEADNESS/UNCLEANESSS - Rom. 8:7-8 and to be IN the spiritual state of LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS is to be "in the Spirit" as the fruit of the Spirit is characterized by LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Only two kinds of humans exist on planet earth from Genesis to Revelation - those who are "in the flesh" and those who are "in the Spirit" and all who are "in the flesh" are NONE OF HIS and all who are "in the Spirit" are indwelt by the Spirit or they are NONE OF HIS - Rom. 8:8-9. To say the same thing another way, all who are in a spiritual state of darkness/deadness/uncleaness are NONE OF HIS but all who are in a spiritual state of light/life/righteousness are indwelt by the Spirit, in the Spirit due to the act of regeneration/new birth/quickening/circumcision of the heart/effectual calling.

Again more detailed evidence that no one on this forum has addressed except by merely asserting it is wrong. However, that is the only thing ignorance can do - assert itself - period.