Yes, as they did not have him within them the Holy Spirit in same measure/fashion that we do have Him now under the new Covenant.
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What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him
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Yes, as they did not have him within them the Holy Spirit in same measure/fashion that we do have Him now under the new Covenant.
God had remitted, not held his own sin accountible to Him, based upon the Cross of Christ yet to happen, but why do most assume that meant that all OT believers had Spirit same fashion as we have Him now?
That is your opinion and I respect it.
I disagree in part. When we look at Christendom as a whole there has been a colossal failure and a huge apostasy from the truth.
However "Christendom" is NOT the church. The church, the Body of Christ, consisting of all born again believers from Pentecost until now is part of the promise of Christ "and the gates of hell will not prevail against it".
Matthew 13 is satan's master plan to defeat the true church defined above.
In the parable of the 4 soils he has "snatched away" the word under several tactical methods.
In the parable of the wheat and the tares he has infiltrated the local churches (and in fact all of Christendom) with counterfeit Christians who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
Etc, etc...
but he cannot touch us who are walking in the Spirit. That does not mean we are totally immune from his wiles , only what we allow him to do.
HankD
That is indeed true, as national Isreal has had within it saved jews who trusted in Jesus as Messiah, and so were shown to be spiritual isrealites, while since pentacost, there have been many saved/lost attending same church services!
Yes and so it will continue until he sends His reapers to bind the tares in the field to be burned but gathers the wheat into His barn.
Genesis 49
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
HankD
...until Shiloh come... Shiloh is an interesting place, it is the very first place where the children of Israel established the Temple Site. The Mount of Olives is in the vicinity of Shiloh proper.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
HankD
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
HankD
The Mount of Olives (in Shiloh) is the location of the ascension:
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
HankD
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
HankD
What OT passages indicate that the OT saints were indwelt, sealed in Christ, just as NT saints are? Answer - none given.
1) Vague, arcane and obscure phrases were said to "mean" rebirth and indwelling such as "circumcised of heart" or "perfect" or "righteous." But alternate views for the meaning from lexicons or commentaries demonstrate this claim is simply eisegesis (pouring an agenda driven meaning into the text.)
2) Jesus told Nicodemus that he should have known you have to have been born anew to enter heaven. But since no OT Saint had entered heaven before Jesus died, this indicates the OT saints had to wait to be born anew in Abraham's bosom.
3) The claim that "perfect" as used in the OT means the same as "perfect" in Hebrews 11:39-40 creates a conflict. It they were already perfect, why did they have to wait? Answer, the OT usage does not mean "made perfect by God in our spiritual rebirth in Christ."
1) Vague, arcane and obscure phrases were said to "mean" rebirth and indwelling such as "circumcised of heart" or "perfect" or "righteous." But alternate views for the meaning from lexicons or commentaries demonstrate this claim is simply eisegesis (pouring an agenda driven meaning into the text.)
2) Jesus told Nicodemus that he should have known you have to have been born anew to enter heaven. But since no OT Saint had entered heaven before Jesus died, this indicates the OT saints had to wait to be born anew in Abraham's bosom.
3) The claim that "perfect" as used in the OT means the same as "perfect" in Hebrews 11:39-40 creates a conflict. It they were already perfect, why did they have to wait? Answer, the OT usage does not mean "made perfect by God in our spiritual rebirth in Christ."
First, you don't even understand the meaning of sealed or what it implies. It is a metaphor taken from the postal services of the first century. A "seal" informed all who would attempt to open the letter who they must deal with if they were not the correct party. It conveys the idea of SECURITY.
Second, the Old testament repeatedly says in the clearest possible langauge the OT saints were preserved forever:
Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
The OT scriptures repeatedly state in the clearest language possible that the Lord would never leave or forsake his saints in the Old Testament.
Ge 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
De 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
De 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.
Jos 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
Ps 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
You are guilty of the very charge you are making. You are the one taking obscure langauge to deny what is spelled out in both the Old and New Testament in crystal clear statements.
1. Circumcision of heart is a NEW TESTAMENT synonym for new birth - Col. 2:11-2 as well as an Old Testament synonym - Ezek. 44:7
2. You are twisting John 3:13 to pit against plain scriptures that repudiate how you are using it. Elijah was taken up to heaven and the mount of transformation proves it. David claimed he was going to heaven at death and that context has been placed before you numerous times and you have NOTHING to say about it.
It DOES NOT mean the same as Hebrews 11:39-40 as the immediate context makes it crystal clear that "perfect" in this context is GLORIFICATION IN BODY and entrance into the new heaven and earth. It was the "promise" of a new heaven and earth where Jerusalem dwelt on the earth that Abraham was looking for. We are STILL WAITING for that and so are all who now IN HEAVEN STILL WAITING for that.
Rom. 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The "children of the flesh" refers to NATURAL or PHYSICAL born children of Abraham and these are not the children of promise, nor the "children of God".
How could Paul even make a distinction between "children of the flesh" and "children of God" if it was not a distinction between born of the flesh and born of the Spirit???? The only other alternative is to suggest no children of promise (children of God) existed prior to the cross, but then, what is the point of contrast here then as the focus is before the cross????
Gal. 4:28-29 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
If one removes the illipses "born after the Spirit" then one also denies there is an meaningful contrast being made with "born after the flesh" "THEN" or "NOW"! In addition, Romans 9:7-8 demands there were "children of God" prior to the cross who were not "born of the flesh." If the children of the flesh are not the children of promise either then or now then what other alternative is there then or now to be children of promise other than by new birth??????
What Van and others that hold his view must contend with is what other possible alternative is there to being "born after the flesh" in order to be "children of God". Why use the phase "born after the flesh" if that is the only kind of birth possible prior to the cross??? What other possible contrast can there be to "born after the flesh" in order to be "children of God" if not born after the Spirit????
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I no longer read the posts of Biblicist, because if I address them, it encourages him to post more of the same, and he loves to copy his own posts not once or twice but many times. But lets pause and address post 149.
1) I do not understand seal according to this mindreader. Actually I have done a study on the topic.
2) The issue is not that God promised to preserve the OT Saints, the issue is were they sealed in Christ before Christ died. And the answer from scripture is no. Otherwise they would have been made perfect and gone to heaven (the abode of God) rather than Abraham's bosom.
3) And again, the issue is not that God promised to not forsake the OT Saints, the issue is were they sealed in Christ before He died? And the answer is no, otherwise they would have been made perfect and entered heaven, rather than having to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect after Christ died.
4) No one, repeat no one, repeat no one, repeat no one ascended to heaven (the abode of God) until Christ died. Anyone who says different simply nullifies John 3:13.
6) Lastly, lets consider the meaning of "circumcision of heart" which refers in Colossians 2:11-12 to our rebirth where we undergo the circumcision of Christ. Now what is claimed by others is that the use of uncircumcised in heart (Ezekiel 44:7, 9 and Acts 7:51) refers to the same circumcision. This is prove "a" and then claim "b" has been proved argument. The uncircumcision referred to in the OT passages is a lack of belief (faith) in God which of course the OT saints had, see Hebrews 11.
1) I do not understand seal according to this mindreader. Actually I have done a study on the topic.
2) The issue is not that God promised to preserve the OT Saints, the issue is were they sealed in Christ before Christ died. And the answer from scripture is no. Otherwise they would have been made perfect and gone to heaven (the abode of God) rather than Abraham's bosom.
3) And again, the issue is not that God promised to not forsake the OT Saints, the issue is were they sealed in Christ before He died? And the answer is no, otherwise they would have been made perfect and entered heaven, rather than having to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect after Christ died.
4) No one, repeat no one, repeat no one, repeat no one ascended to heaven (the abode of God) until Christ died. Anyone who says different simply nullifies John 3:13.
To repeat, the Bible speaks of three heavens, the atmosphere where clouds and birds hang out, space where the sun, moon and stars hang out, and the third heaven, the abode of God. When an OT saint is said to be taken up to "heaven" the first heaven (our atmosphere) is in view, not the third heaven because no one ascended there.
5) To be made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40) is not referring to our resurrection in glorified bodies, it is referring to being born anew, blameless, faultless and thus perfect and holy spiritually. If glorification in resurrected bodies were in view, why did they not go to heaven when they died as we do? 6) Lastly, lets consider the meaning of "circumcision of heart" which refers in Colossians 2:11-12 to our rebirth where we undergo the circumcision of Christ. Now what is claimed by others is that the use of uncircumcised in heart (Ezekiel 44:7, 9 and Acts 7:51) refers to the same circumcision. This is prove "a" and then claim "b" has been proved argument. The uncircumcision referred to in the OT passages is a lack of belief (faith) in God which of course the OT saints had, see Hebrews 11.
No, because you cannot answer the specific detailed evidence placed before you and EVERY READER KNOWS THIS as it is obvious - you have no responses equal to the detailed evidence presented.
Galatians 3:17 explicitly says that Abraham's faith in Christ (vv. 6-8) was "IN CHRIST". The Psalmist according to Christ himself, knew Christ (Psa. 110:1) as "Lord" and all throughout the Psalms repeatedly says that his hope, salvation, protection, faith, etc., were "IN" His Lord - Christ.
Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
He claims that the Lord IS his righteouness, his hope, etc. There is no salvation for any fallen man OUTSIDE of Christ before or after Pentecost (Acts 4:12 with John 14:6).
You are arbritrarily making "Abraham's bosom" mean something entirely different than what the common Jew beleived it was in the days of Christ. They did not deny Abraham was in heaven, but Abraham was the father of Israel and to go to heaven was to go and be with Abraham.
No, they simply nullify your interpretation of John 3:13 which interpretation contradicts clear and explicit scriptures to the contrary.
I have already documented in great detail Old testament Scriptures that clearly and explicitly define the visible glory of God to be in the third heaven above the sky and stars and that is precisely where David says he would go after death. Your response? You simply ignore all the Biblical evidence and repeat your unsubstantiated mantra.
Says who? Look at the preceding context about the very promises spelled out for you in clear English in Hebrews 11:12-17 where Abraham was searching for a city ON EARTH which he never found IN THIS LIFE. Nor have we found that city ON EARTH in this life - together we will enter that city ON EARTH in Revelation 21-22:3. However, we all must be made "perfect" in body before we can enter that city ON EARTH - the NEW EARTH.
Ezekiel 44:7, 9 distinguish between circumcision "in heart" versus "in flesh" as something additional to "in flesh." That very fact simply evaporates your objections altogether.
Folks, as you can see, post 152 simply repeats prior arguments and does not address the rebuttals.
1) The mindreader makes the usual claim of mind reading. LOL
2) Galatians 3:17 does not say Abraham's faith was in Christ.
3) The issue is not that salvation is only in Christ, the issue is were the OT saints sealed in Christ before Christ died and the answer is no.
4) Next we get the poster channeling the Jews and telling us about their beliefs in the location of Abraham's bosom. Jesus tells us it is not located in heaven, the abode of God because no one ascended there.
5) Yet again, John 3:13 is nullified by the poster.
6) I have explained the three heavens, and this view is widely held.
7) Again the issue is not what Abraham was expecting, the issue is whether he was made perfect before Christ died. Scripture says he was not.
8) The poster seems to have forgotten what Ezekiel 44:7 says, which is uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, so neither a committed believer nor physically circumcised.
1) The mindreader makes the usual claim of mind reading. LOL
2) Galatians 3:17 does not say Abraham's faith was in Christ.
3) The issue is not that salvation is only in Christ, the issue is were the OT saints sealed in Christ before Christ died and the answer is no.
4) Next we get the poster channeling the Jews and telling us about their beliefs in the location of Abraham's bosom. Jesus tells us it is not located in heaven, the abode of God because no one ascended there.
5) Yet again, John 3:13 is nullified by the poster.
6) I have explained the three heavens, and this view is widely held.
7) Again the issue is not what Abraham was expecting, the issue is whether he was made perfect before Christ died. Scripture says he was not.
8) The poster seems to have forgotten what Ezekiel 44:7 says, which is uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, so neither a committed believer nor physically circumcised.
The OT and the NT are in perfect harmony. Anything else is hogwash.
Hogwash is a good name for it.
Take a musical piece (concerto or opera) for instance.
Harmony does not require all the musicians to play the same notes on their several instruments at the same time, in some operas (or is it operi) the singers will be singing different parts, different words, in some scenes (opera) new singers, actors, musical instruments are introduced, yet the piece is in harmony from beginning to end.
HankD
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