What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

[The Biblicist]

Again more detailed evidence that no one on this forum has addressed except by merely asserting it is wrong. However, that is the only thing ignorance can do - assert itself - period.

Is it necessary to tell someone that merely asserting something is wrong does not prove it is wrong? Apparently it is necessary!

Is it necessary to tell someone that explicit detailed evidences cannot be proven wrong by merely asserting they are wrong? Apparently it is necessary!

It would seem that anyone who has been on the forum for any length of time should know these things, but apparently some do not.

Van, you have yet to deal with the evidences placed before your face. You have only asserted they are wrong but never have even addressed them and provided any proof they are wrong? Did I really have to say what I just said????? What a sad state of affairs when it has to be said in a debate forum that one must actually deal with explicit evidence that supports a position or interpretation and prove they are wrong rather than merely asserting they are wrong!!!

It is common among cultists to ignore evidences and just respond by asserting no such evidence has been presented to them or just asserting without any proof that such evidences are no evidence for a position. :BangHead:

However, when a person CANNOT disprove the evidence, and are incapable of changing their position to the position the evidence demands, then of course all that they can do is assert and assert and assert and repeat the assertions over and over and over again!!!!

 

[Van]

That seems unlikey Van as the verbs are present tense (wind blows) and the noun is a perfect participle (very one that is born of the Spirit).

a perfect participle after a present tense verb usually means something that has been happening all along.

This is how Young's literal translation renders this passage:

John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
...
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Look above to see where Jesus said people went having been born again - The kingdom of God (Abraham's bosom is part of the kingdom of God).

Again HaShamayim is the dual heaven and IMO the third heaven is the eternal dwelling place of God where no created being could go until Jesus prepared it for them.

Van we were made positionally perfect when were saved. Yet we still sin, our goal is to mortify the flesh until we are "perfect" (mature) in Christ, we won't know our positional perfection until we leave this flesh behind.

Van How could Enoch be pleasing to God and taken if he were still in the flesh with an unclean heart?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

HankD

HankD, you are not responding, but rather just changing the subject with more mistaken views, one after the other. Lets stick with John 3:8. The idea we see the effects of the wind, i.e. dust blowing or the sound, but we do not know how the wind was created. In a similar manner, we do not know how God brings about rebirth of our human spirit. Thus we do not know the mechanism or manner by with God brings about rebirth.

As far as the claim the grammar requires that the event has occurred, I disagree. If I said, we do not know how God will change our bodies at the second coming, everyone who is resurrected, have I said anyone has been resurrected? Nope.

Thus John 3:8 does not say any OT Saint had been born anew before Christ died.

As far as discussing heaven, I am done. You are playing games. No one ascended to heaven, the third heaven before Christ died. The idea that the third heaven did not exist during OT times is without merit.

Bottom line, claims OT saints had been made perfect by being born anew are flawed. They did not go to be present with Christ in heaven, but under the New Covenant, to be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. No answer has been provided.

The claim Jesus said people had been born anew is mistaken. Nick should have known of the requirement based on OT scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Moses appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Tranfiguration BEFORE Pentecost and thus where Elijah went "INTO HEAVEN" so Moses also went as they both appeared together.

David went to Heaven:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. He is "CONTINUALLY WITH THEE"
2. Only two possible spheres are mentioned "in heaven" versus "upon earth."
3. Here on earth the Lord will "guide me" and "AFTERWARD receive me TO GLORY"

Only an agenda driven ideologist would deny this and he must EXPLAIN IT AWAY.

David explained his death as FLYING AWAY not GOING DOWNWARD:

Ps 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I I fly away, and be at rest.


Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

When David considered the two most extremes there was only "heaven" and "hell" but no mention of any kind of Baptist/Catholic purgatory for the saved.

John 3:13 only denies any man has gone to heaven and come back to tell about heavenly things. Even after Pentecost Paul was caught up to the third heaven but was commanded not to reveal what he saw.

Those who deny spiritual union/sealing/indwelling/new birth prior to Pentecost do not even understand the baby essentials of salvation. The fall did not occur after Pentecost and neither did the salvation from the consequences of the fall begin after Pentecost. The problem of sin is INTERNAL (spiritual) and so is its solution and Biblical salvation begins internally and concludes external physical. The internal problem of sin is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God who is LIFE, who is LIGHT and who is RIGHTEOUSNESS. When Adam sinned, his spiritual condition was NO DIFFERENT than yours. The same solution to resolove his internal state of spiritual separation from God is the same for you. You must be brought into spiritual union with God (life/light/righteouensss) or you are still spiritually DEAD in spiritual DARKNESS and without spiritual RIGHTEOUSNESS. Spiritual indwelling is being made spiritually ALIVE and brought into spiritual LIGHT and having the moral image of God restored "righteousness and true holiness" internally. That spiritual union IS indwelling and the Spirit IS the seal of that union/life/light/righteousness.

Those who live in their little theological dream worlds, out of touch with reality ignore that indwelling sin is not a Post-Pentecost reality but the reality of the fall and the cause of spiritual separation from God/life/light/righteousness then and now. The only possible way that pre-Pentecost saints to be saints, to be righteous, to have spiritual enlightenment, to walk by faith (Heb. 11) is by reversal of their spiritual separation from God.

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


1. The Lord is CONTINUALLY with David

2. "Thou shall guide me with thy counsel" is elsewhere described by David to be ON EARTH - Ps 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

3. So "afterwards" means after death

4. After death he is received "INTO GLORY" - Glory is elsewhere defined by David to be in the THIRD HEAVEN where God's throne dwells above the created "heavens" -


Psa. 8:1O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Isa 63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?

5. David in the this very context defines "glory" to be "in heaven" where God dwells - the third heaven.

6. David is explicitly stating that the Lord will be with him CONTINUALLY on earth and after death he will be received into heaven where God's glory abides above the heavens.


CONCLUSION: Again I provide detailed contextual evidence that Pre-cross saints went to the third heaven at death and what is Van's response each time - the same unsupported assertions that I have not provided any evidence - go figure!

 

[HankD]

HankD, you are not responding, but rather just changing the subject with more mistaken views, one after the other. Lets stick with John 3:8. The idea we see the effects of the wind, i.e. dust blowing or the sound, but we do not know how the wind was created. In a similar manner, we do not know how God brings about rebirth of our human spirit. Thus we do not know the mechanism or manner by with God brings about rebirth.

As far as the claim the grammar requires that the event has occurred, I disagree. If I said, we do not know how God will change our bodies at the second coming, everyone who is resurrected, have I said anyone has been resurrected? Nope.

Thus John 3:8 does not say any OT Saint had been born anew before Christ died.

I guess we will just have to disagree (concerning the use of the perfect participle).

As far as discussing heaven, I am done. You are playing games. No one ascended to heaven, the third heaven before Christ died. The idea that the third heaven did not exist during OT times is without merit.

I never said it didn't exist but that it was not specifically revealed in the OT. I did say it could not be inhabited by created beings (with the possible exception of arch angels) until a special preparation was accomplished for them. As Biblicist has shown the third heaven was implied in that God looked down upon the heavens (dual).

Bottom line, claims OT saints had been made perfect by being born anew are flawed. They did not go to be present with Christ in heaven, but under the New Covenant, to be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. No answer has been provided.

Not sure what you are asking but I have an idea what it might be and shown by the pre-cross scripture incident.

Luke 9
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

The claim Jesus said people had been born anew is mistaken. Nick should have known of the requirement based on OT scripture.

Well just to verbally refute my grammatical observation doesn't make it not true. Again, we will just have to disagree.

Again, how is it that Enoch pleased God not having been "born again"?

You have said above that Jesus expected Nicodemus to know of the born again requirement based upon OT scripture.

Do you know where that OT scripture might be Van?


post script: The grammatical discussion of the koine participle is taken from one of my text books:
A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, The MacMillan Co.,1955, pgs 229 - 230.
Also, the use of the perfect tense it's completed action with it's finished results. ibid pg200.

Thanks
HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

The church of Christ is completely and entirely a New Testament institution that Christ built in his personal ministry BEFORE Pentecost. He "set in" the church the apostles BEFORE Pentecost (1 Cor. 12:28; Mk. 3:12). Its ordinances were administered BEFORE Pentecost (Lk. 7:29-30; Mt. 26:12-30). It's disciplinary authority and congregational form of government was established BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 18:15-20). It was Commissioned twice BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 10; 28:19-20). It was regularly and habitually assembling under Christ as its head BEFORE Pentecost (Acts 1:21-22). It assembled in business meeting for selection of a new church officer BEFORE Pentecost (Acts 1:12-28).

It was empowered, indwelt and "added" unto on Pentecost.

It is entirely a New Testament institution in regard to its origin or "foundation" which was not composed of Old Testament prophets or saints but "first apostles, secondarily prophets" of New Testament calling (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28). It's government, ordinances, officers and members were all New Testament in origin.

Regeneration of the 120 members in Acts 1 occurred BEFORE Pentecost as regeneration was inseparable from gospel conversion since Genesis 3:15. Proof? Ezekeil 44:7

In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

1. These were not merely uncircumcised IN FLESH but in addition were also uncircumcised IN HEART.

2. Circumcision in heart is a synonym for new birth in both the Old and New Testaments (Col. 2:11-12) as it is the cutting off of the fleshly nature.

3. They were rebuked for allowing UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART entrance into God's house not merely uncircumcised in flesh.

4. God could not possibly rebuke them or condemn them for something they did not understand or something that had no existence.

5. "uncircumcised in heart" can only be understood by its contrast "circumcised in heart" which is taught in the Old Testament by the Prophets.

6. Unlike Nicodemus, Ezekiel knew that a "circumcised heart" was a "new heart" that must be given by God - Ezek. 36:26.

7. Unlike Nicodemus, Moses knew that God must GIVE a new heart in order for individuals to "perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear" or no obedience to God was possible - Deut. 5:29; Deut. 29:4.

Since the above explicit and detailed arguments for the explanation of Ezekiel 44:7 have NEVER been addressed, but only repudiated by sweeping denials empty of any reasons or substance whatsoever, I repost the same yet unanswered evidence that the new birth was not only known in the Old Testament but was required by God equally as when Jesus said "Verily verily, I say unto you, ye MUST be born again."

 

[Van]

Hi HankD, lets review.
No one ascended to heaven where Jesus came from, Not Job, Not Abraham, Not Enoch. No one. No one. You have yet to agree that no one ascended to heaven. Why not?

We certainly disagree with your claim a future setting or point of view would not allow the use of the grammar. I provided a modern example.

Luke 9 does not say or suggest OT Saints were in heaven, they were brought out of Abraham's bosom because no one, that is no one was in heaven.

And HankD, yes I know where scholars believe Jesus was making reference. For you to ask the question reveals yet another attempt to change the subject and disparage me. One logical fallacy after another.

To review:
If OT Saints had been "regenerated, made alive, born anew, sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, they would have been made perfect, but they were not. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died.
If the OT Saints had been "regenerated, made alive, born anew, sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, they would have gone to be present with the Lord at physical death, but they did not. No one ascended to be where Jesus was.
All the OT Saints gained approval through faith, thus to a degree were "pleasing" to God.

 

[HankD]

Hi HankD, lets review.
No one ascended to heaven where Jesus came from, Not Job, Not Abraham, Not Enoch. No one. No one. You have yet to agree that no one ascended to heaven. Why not?

I've answered that several times. I believe you are getting my answers confused with Biblicists. "heaven" is compartmentalized. The third heaven is the very presence of God the uncreated habitat of God where no one could go until Jesus prepared it for created beings. Which "heaven" is determined by the context.

We certainly disagree with your claim a future setting or point of view would not allow the use of the grammar. I provided a modern example.

OK, we disagree.

Luke 9 does not say or suggest OT Saints were in heaven, they were brought out of Abraham's bosom because no one, that is no one was in heaven.

OK I believe I said this as well, Jesus prepared the third heaven for created beings.

And HankD, yes I know where scholars believe Jesus was making reference. For you to ask the question reveals yet another attempt to change the subject and disparage me. One logical fallacy after another.

OK. I'll accept the accusation - so answer the question then.
BTW, there is disagreement about this - Jeremiah 30:31-33 seems to be a favorite but there is no mention of a "new birth" or a "birth from above" in this passage.

Therefore Jesus must have meant that it was veiled in a metaphor in the OT. Being a "master" in Israel" Jesus expected him to know of the new birth

To review:
If OT Saints had been "regenerated, made alive, born anew, sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, they would have been made perfect, but they were not. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died.
If the OT Saints had been "regenerated, made alive, born anew, sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, they would have gone to be present with the Lord at physical death, but they did not. No one ascended to be where Jesus was.
All the OT Saints gained approval through faith, thus to a degree were "pleasing" to God.

That is (IMO) a supposition on your part. God the Father does what He pleases and it pleased Him to wait until Jesus had returned and prepared a place for those who would be with Him in the third heaven.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

HankD

 

[Van]

1) Abraham's bosom is claimed to be a compartment of heaven. Not a shed of evidence for the... ah...supposition.

2) Jesus says no one ascended to heaven, HankD says yes they did, just not in the same compartment. LOL

3) If the point of view is presenting a future condition as if it had occurred, then the point of view would require the grammar. HankD can disagree.

4) No need to change the subject, lets stick with your assertion the OT saints were sealed in Christ forever when they gained approval through faith. There is not a shed of evidence for such a claim, but many verses indicate that view is erroneous.

5) You do not get to heaven because you were born a Jew, you must be born anew.

6) Why did they not ascend to heaven as New Covenant saints do? No answer will be forthcoming.

7) Why were they not made perfect, if they were regenerated, made alive, born anew and sealed forever with the Holy Spirit? No answer will be forthcoming.

8) If the OT Saints were sealed in Christ when they gained approval through faith, why did Jesus not prepare a place for them? No answer will be forthcoming.

 

[HankD]

1) Abraham's bosom is claimed to be a compartment of heaven. Not a shed of evidence for the... ah...supposition.

Its where the OT saints went. I don't understand why you keep bringing this up as we agree on this. Call it whatever you want. Paul said that there were 3 heavens - It's the second one.

2) Jesus says no one ascended to heaven, HankD says yes they did, just not in the same compartment. LOL

No one ascended into the third heaven until Jesus prepared a place there for created beings.

3) If the point of view is presenting a future condition as if it had occurred, then the point of view would require the grammar. HankD can disagree.

This is why Nicodemus couldn't understand Jesus and n ever would be able to do do until he had been born again.

4) No need to change the subject, lets stick with your assertion the OT saints were sealed in Christ forever when they gained approval through faith. There is not a shed of evidence for such a claim, but many verses indicate that view is erroneous.

I'll just quote you : "No answer will be forthcoming.".

5) You do not get to heaven because you were born a Jew, you must be born anew.

I already know that.

6) Why did they not ascend to heaven as New Covenant saints do? No answer will be forthcoming.

It wasn't the time yet, Jesus needed to "prepare a place" for them.

7) Why were they not made perfect, if they were regenerated, made alive, born anew and sealed forever with the Holy Spirit? No answer will be forthcoming.

They were counted/reckoned perfectly righteous as was Abraham. However just like you and I Abraham while still in the flesh here on earth had issues.

Romans 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

8) If the OT Saints were sealed in Christ when they gained approval through faith, why did Jesus not prepare a place for them? No answer will be forthcoming.

The incarnation had to happen first.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


HankD

 

[Van]

Yet another absurdity, the three heavens are (1) the atmosphere where clouds and birds hang out, (2) space where the sun, moon and stars hang out, and (3) the abode of God.

Next, although you deny you are a Calvinist, you now say Nick would not be able to understand until born anew. Thus (1) you advocate the T of the Tulip, the I of the Tulip. So while you denied it, you view is indeed agenda driven. No one would conclude the OT Saints were sealed in Christ based on scripture.

Where in scripture does it say the OT saints went to Abraham's bosom, a prepared place, because God chose not to prepare a place in heaven? No where. One absurd claim after another.

And next, it is claimed Abraham was credited as "perfectly righteous." Not how it reads. Scripture actually says his faith was credited as righteousness. Not him, but his faith. Not him but his faith.

Finally, Romans 5:19 is posted but denied!!! LOL. This verse says the OT saints could not be made righteous until after Christ died. Game set match.

 

[Jedi Knight]

If that is true, then why does the OT always say that he came upon

Same thing happen at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit "sat upon them". Also notice Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has "come upon you",

 

[HankD]

Yet another absurdity, the three heavens are (1) the atmosphere where clouds and birds hang out, (2) space where the sun, moon and stars hang out, and (3) the abode of God.

Next, although you deny you are a Calvinist, you now say Nick would not be able to understand until born anew. Thus (1) you advocate the T of the Tulip, the I of the Tulip. So while you denied it, you view is indeed agenda driven. No one would conclude the OT Saints were sealed in Christ based on scripture.

Where in scripture does it say the OT saints went to Abraham's bosom, a prepared place, because God chose not to prepare a place in heaven? No where. One absurd claim after another.

And next, it is claimed Abraham was credited as "perfectly righteous." Not how it reads. Scripture actually says his faith was credited as righteousness. Not him, but his faith. Not him but his faith.

Finally, Romans 5:19 is posted but denied!!! LOL. This verse says the OT saints could not be made righteous until after Christ died. Game set match.

Saving faith is not possible without the new birth which Abraham apparently had.

See Romans 4:
He believed God.
He was "sealed" with the righteousness of faith.
His sin was not imputed to Him.
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Romans 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

How can anyone be a "friend" of God who is not born again?

You say you believe that Jesus expectation of Nicodemus was to know of the "new birth" as a possible future event yet you either cannot, will not or are not able to tell me where in the OT that expectation of the future "new birth" is taught. This is a major point in this debate. You cannot claim anything until you answer my challenge (no matter what my motive is) or cede the point.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Addendum to the previous post.

Yet another absurdity, the three heavens are (1) the atmosphere where clouds and birds hang out, (2) space where the sun, moon and stars hang out, and (3) the abode of God.

Prove it with scripture. Especially the one about space (Jerusalem, we have a problem?).

I am NOT a calvinist.

See you soon I will be going on vacation for a couple of days.

I shall return - Lord willing.

You still need to show me in Scripture where Nicodemus could have found the future "new birth" in the OT, having been a "master in Israel".

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Thus (1) you advocate the T of the Tulip, the I of the Tulip. So while you denied it, you view is indeed agenda driven.

Just more evidence you have no concept even about the fundamental issues of Biblical salvation. The curse comes from Adam, not from what you do after your born - Paul does not say "by many mens sins many be made sinners" but that is the very basis of your WHOLE SOTERIOLOGY!

No one would conclude the OT Saints were sealed in Christ based on scripture.

First, the "seal" of the Spirit IS the Spirit's ABIDING PRESENCE with His people:


Ge 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

De 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

De 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

Jos 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.


1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.


1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.


Ps 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.



Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

And next, it is claimed Abraham was credited as "perfectly righteous."

You don't even have the elementary understanding of the doctrine of justification! Your justification is no different than Abraham's because it is Abraham's justification that is set forth as the MODEL for all who are justified.

Not how it reads. Scripture actually says his faith was credited as righteousness. Not him, but his faith. Not him but his faith.

BECAUSE YOU READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT!!!! Justification by faith is introduced in Romans 3:24-26 and concluded in Romans 4:23-5:2! His faith justifies him BECAUSE OF ITS OBJECT - the sinless righteousness of Christ! 2 Cor. 5:21 does not say we are made ALMOST righteous but we are made the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST and sin cannot be found in him, neither did he any sin! You don't even understand the elementary truths demanded by the sacrificial type of Christ which was to be "without spot or blemish". You don't even understand that sin is "coming short of the glory of God" and the glory of God is not ALMOST sinless righteousness!

Finally, Romans 5:19 is posted but denied!!! LOL. This verse says the OT saints could not be made righteous until after Christ died. Game set match.

Sure it does!!! It teaches no such thing! So you interpret Romans 5:19 to directly contradict Romans 4:11:

Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


1. Past tense COMPLETED ACTION "had"
2. "Had" yet being "UNCIRCUMCISED"

There is no FUTURE tense in Romans 5:19!!!! - Rom. 4:11 explicitly states that Abraham had this righteous as a COMPLETED ACTION prior to being circumcised. Justification, remission of sins is regarded as a PAST TENSE COMPLETED action for Old testament saints - (Acts 10:43) as that is the state that is considered as "blessed" and Paul explicitly states that both Abraham and David were thus "blessed" - Rom. 4:6-10.

Go back to sunday class and learn the fundementals, the abc's of salvation!

 

[Van]

Addendum to the previous post.

Prove it with scripture. Especially the one about space (Jerusalem, we have a problem?).

I am NOT a calvinist.

See you soon I will be going on vacation for a couple of days.

I shall return - Lord willing.

You still need to show me in Scripture where Nicodemus could have found the future "new birth" in the OT, having been a "master in Israel".

HankD

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Instead of asking me, why don't you search "heaven" and based on context, determine what is in view. Pretty simple study.

I know you say your not a Calvinist, based on your definition. However, using a widely held definition, if you believe 4 or more points of the Tulip are true, you are a Calvinist according to my viewpoint.

And again, you can look up the verses, there are a slew of them, thought by various scholars to be in view. For example, read the NET footnote and see the three verses cited there.

Basically, I am done. You have no answers, for why no one had ascended to heaven (the abode of God) or why the OT saints were not made perfect. You misrepresented Romans 4, substituting Abraham for Abraham's faith. It is pointless to continue.

One final point, recall where I said being born a Jew was not enough to enter heaven, you had to be born anew. After a person is born anew, arising in Christ a new creation, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Thus the future outpouring of the Holy Spirit points to future rebirth. Otherwise you will have to answer yet another question, if they were born anew, why was the Spirit not poured on until Pentecost? Don't bother answering, without a commitment to communication, discussion is pointless.

 

[The Biblicist]

Just more evidence you have no concept even about the fundamental issues of Biblical salvation. The curse comes from Adam, not from what you do after your born - Paul does not say "by many mens sins many be made sinners" but that is the very basis of your WHOLE SOTERIOLOGY!




First, the "seal" of the Spirit IS the Spirit's ABIDING PRESENCE with His people:


Ge 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

De 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

De 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

Jos 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.


1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.


1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.


Ps 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.



Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.





You don't even have the elementary understanding of the doctrine of justification! Your justification is no different than Abraham's because it is Abraham's justification that is set forth as the MODEL for all who are justified.



BECAUSE YOU READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT!!!! Justification by faith is introduced in Romans 3:24-26 and concluded in Romans 4:23-5:2! His faith justifies him BECAUSE OF ITS OBJECT - the sinless righteousness of Christ! 2 Cor. 5:21 does not say we are made ALMOST righteous but we are made the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST and sin cannot be found in him, neither did he any sin! You don't even understand the elementary truths demanded by the sacrificial type of Christ which was to be "without spot or blemish". You don't even understand that sin is "coming short of the glory of God" and the glory of God is not ALMOST sinless righteousness!




Sure it does!!! It teaches no such thing! So you interpret Romans 5:19 to directly contradict Romans 4:11:

Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


1. Past tense COMPLETED ACTION "had"
2. "Had" yet being "UNCIRCUMCISED"

There is no FUTURE tense in Romans 5:19!!!! - Rom. 4:11 explicitly states that Abraham had this righteous as a COMPLETED ACTION prior to being circumcised, thus prior to the cross! Justification, remission of sins is regarded as a PAST TENSE COMPLETED action for Old testament saints - (Acts 10:43) as that is the state that is considered as "blessed" and Paul explicitly states that both Abraham and David were thus "blessed" - Rom. 4:6-10.

Go back to sunday class and learn the fundementals, the abc's of salvation!

Readers, notice that Van simply can't answer the evidence placed squarely before him. The Old Testament scriptures plainly teach that the believer prior to Pentecost was "PRESERVED FOREVER" that is sealing - the abiding presence of God. I have never seen such total incompetence in handling scriptures by anyone more than by Van on this subject. The above evidence speaks for itself.

 

[HankD]

Van, unlike biblicist who inundates you with scripture in most of his posts I like to take one point at a time (although I have done several at once with you).

You need to bring forth an answer to the second question of two before you can enjoy the expectation of having public credibility in this debate:

1. Why did Jesus have an expectation that Nicodemus should have known of the second birth?

Your answer to this part was that it was supposedly an event which was yet to be - a future event (although Jesus clearly used language that there were people who had already experienced the new birth).

2. In any event - Where in the OT is that scripture?

You have yet to answer ( I even offered a possibility).

You had also claimed that there were no "perfect" humans in the OT, you were shown two and you then said it didn't mean what your definition of perfect meant (of course).

But perhaps you already know that there is no phrase like the "new birth" in the OT.

That would be problematic for you - not because there is no such phrase but because it would have to be either a metaphorical or an equivalent phrase since Jesus expected Nicodemus a "master in Israel" to have knowledge of said phrase(s).

And in fact there are indeed such metaphorical phrases in the OT which biblicist has been giving you over and over again, namely concerning the circumcised heart, the righteous and others.

And here is the problem - God in one instance complained that the uncircumcised in heart (unregenerate people) already existed and were being brought into the sanctuary.

So again, where then did Jesus expect Nicodemus to find this as a future event in the OT scripture?

You should at least give a token answer and to repeat myself I even offered you a possibility (Jeremiah 31:31-37).

This passage is also problematic for some folks because the promise is to Israel and Judah (the two southern tribes) of which the Lord said (in the same passage) would exist as long as the sun and the moon exists.


Thanks
Hank

 

[Yeshua1]

Van, unlike biblicist who inundates you with scripture in most of his posts I like to take one point at a time (although I have done several at once with you).

You need to bring forth an answer to the second question of two before you can enjoy the expectation of having public credibility in this debate:

1. Why did Jesus have an expectation that Nicodemus should have known of the second birth?

Your answer to this part was that it was supposedly an event which was yet to be - a future event (although Jesus clearly used language that there were people who had already experienced the new birth).

2. In any event - Where in the OT is that scripture?

You have yet to answer ( I even offered a possibility).

You had also claimed that there were no "perfect" humans in the OT, you were shown two and you then said it didn't mean what your definition of perfect meant (of course).

But perhaps you already know that there is no phrase like the "new birth" in the OT.

That would be problematic for you - not because there is no such phrase but because it would have to be either a metaphorical or an equivalent phrase since Jesus expected Nicodemus a "master in Israel" to have knowledge of said phrase(s).

And in fact there are indeed such metaphorical phrases in the OT which biblicist has been giving you over and over again, namely concerning the circumcised heart, the righteous and others.

And here is the problem - God in one instance complained that the uncircumcised in heart (unregenerate people) already existed and were being brought into the sanctuary.

So again, where then did Jesus expect Nicodemus to find this as a future event in the OT scripture?

You should at least give a token answer and to repeat myself I even offered you a possibility (Jeremiah 31:31-37).

This passage is also problematic for some folks because the promise is to Israel and Judah (the two southern tribes) of which the Lord said (in the same passage) would exist as long as the sun and the moon exists.


Thanks
Hank

Why did the prophets though point towards a future filfillment of the time when Mesiah would come, and THEN the people of God would experience having the new heart condition, ;aw on their hearts?

Why did paul make such a big deal that the lord did NOT expect sinners to have the Spirit indwelling them just as he does now, as while the law was perfect, they were yet still in the flesh and unable to really obey him ?

 

[HankD]

Why did the prophets though point towards a future filfillment of the time when Mesiah would come, and THEN the people of God would experience having the new heart condition, ;aw on their hearts?

Why did paul make such a big deal that the lord did NOT expect sinners to have the Spirit indwelling them just as he does now, as while the law was perfect, they were yet still in the flesh and unable to really obey him ?

There are many things that God has done/is doing/will do that I cannot explain Yeshua and to which portion of the scripture are you referring concerning the Messiah coming and giving us a new heart?

As for the second question that is somewhat knowable: IMO there is a difference (which I have said all along) with the relationship between the OT and NT believer (though both were regenerated) and the Spirit because of the use of future tense verbs in the NT.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

He comes after John and at that time He was not yet baptizing us in the Holy Ghost (indicative, future, active - not yet a reality)

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Active indicative future tense - NOT YET a reality, there is no way to slice/dice this to make it say anything else. There are special ministries related to the church as an institution which has an effect upon individuals.

Regeneration is regeneration, but OT regeneration does not have to relate 100% and its subsequent affects with NT regeneration and its following events. So what? God does as He pleases without checking our systematic theologies before He does anything. e.g. Regenerate OT men wrote inspired scripture:

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Biblicist has shown others.

Why did paul make such a big deal that the lord did NOT expect sinners to have the Spirit indwelling them just as he does now, as while the law was perfect, they were yet still in the flesh and unable to really obey him ?

Yeshua, read 1 Corinthians and then the first 3 chapters of Revelation: then ask yourself this question:

Have we (NT saints) done any better in really obeying Him than the OT saints though we are regenerated, indwelt and sealed with the Spirit?

HankD

 

[The American Dream]

Then how were OT saints saved without the HS?

The ebbing and flowing of the HS in the OT sometimes dealt with a specific service to God.

The "coming" of the HS in the NT is best described by John Piper by contrasting the Old Covenant indwelling as a small stream while in the NT, the indwelling is an overflowing river

The same way Abraham was, he believed or had faith in God and it was counted to him as righteousness.