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What purpose does election and predestination serve?
- Thread starter J.D.
- Start date
psalms109:31
Active Member
He doesn't
God doesn't depend upon us, He set the rules and the conequences.
He doesn't ever depend upon us we either take His salvation or not. We are the ones will pay the consequences.
To God we are dead, Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. We depend on Jesus not Jesus depend upon us. He is our advocate, we only can talk to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.
He is the bridge. The only way we see the Father is through Jesus.
God doesn't repect you more than anyone else. The same hope you have the world has
God doesn't depend upon us, He set the rules and the conequences.
He doesn't ever depend upon us we either take His salvation or not. We are the ones will pay the consequences.
To God we are dead, Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. We depend on Jesus not Jesus depend upon us. He is our advocate, we only can talk to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.
He is the bridge. The only way we see the Father is through Jesus.
God doesn't repect you more than anyone else. The same hope you have the world has
psalms109:31
Active Member
Reject
Those who disown Jesus have no hope!!!
Those who disown Jesus have no hope!!!
npetreley said:
Mt 10:29, Luke 12:6 -- do NOT say by God's will. You wouldn't be trying to "pull a fast one," would you? The closest either comes is Luke who says "none of them is forgotten of God." It doesn't say He determined when and how they would die.
"Are numbered?" So He doesn't KNOW them -- He counted them out before creation? C'mon nrepreley. Ya gotta do better than that. How do you know He didn't just foreknow them?
Do you believe that God wills death? Why does He abolish it as the last enemy, Rev 20:14??
skypair
J.D. said:
OUR destiny depends on OUR decision. What was your decision, J.D.? Did you say, "Well, either I'm elect or I'm not God. No sense my telling You (choosing), God."
Or did you fall on your knees and humbly receive God's Gift?
Now what does that say about your theology -- Calvinist or free will?
skypair
skypair said:
Just to steer this back to the OP, are you saying that God foresaw that I would be saved in 1969, but he did nothing to effect it (as in, election and predestination)?
Do you think I got saved of my own ability and power? Did I "decided" for Christ without being moved toward that decision with the working of God's Spirit within me?
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You used the word "destiny". If your destiny was determined by your decision, what was determined by God's "decision" (election)? If you are destined for heaven based on your decision, what does it mean when the bible says you were "pre"destined by God?
I keep asking questions but I don't get any answers. I just get longer dissertations on why God doesn't really "choose" anything (he just affirms the choices man makes) and He doesn't really "predestine" anything (we determine our own destiny).
Hum! I guess the humanists are right after all. Man really does determine his own destiny.
reformedbeliever
New Member
skypair said:
Ummm......how bout the flood? He killed men, women, children, and infants.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Pride before a fall
Matthew 11:25
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus has not come to save the righteous, but sinners and children who need Him.
They didn't need Jesus, they were the chosen out of the chosen.
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Only Jesus can open our eyes and He can't if they reject Him.
Jesus came into and His own received Him not.
The scripture teaches also that God blinds the wise, and has reveals the truth to children
J.D. said:
Matthew 11:25
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus has not come to save the righteous, but sinners and children who need Him.
They didn't need Jesus, they were the chosen out of the chosen.
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Only Jesus can open our eyes and He can't if they reject Him.
Jesus came into and His own received Him not.
The scripture teaches also that God blinds the wise, and has reveals the truth to children
Brother Bob
New Member
John 12
38: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39: Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
He blinded them for a time but I don't thing for all time but so that the prophesy of Elias might be fulfilled.
38: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39: Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
He blinded them for a time but I don't thing for all time but so that the prophesy of Elias might be fulfilled.
Yeah I noticed after the fact and is why I deleted that post
However, what seems to have been forgotten for some is that this was Gods Judgment on unbelieving Isreal and is part and parsel to the very prophesy quoted and not just by him either but other prophets as well. They were not (as a Nation) allowed to see Him for who he truly was. Yes God blinded them that they would not believe then! BUT... Who were the first THOUSANDS saved. Those same Jews who at the first was blinded so they could not repent THEN
However, what seems to have been forgotten for some is that this was Gods Judgment on unbelieving Isreal and is part and parsel to the very prophesy quoted and not just by him either but other prophets as well. They were not (as a Nation) allowed to see Him for who he truly was. Yes God blinded them that they would not believe then! BUT... Who were the first THOUSANDS saved. Those same Jews who at the first was blinded so they could not repent THEN
Brother Bob
New Member
Yea, I think that is what I said.
He did seem to, didn't He :tear: Didn't even tell Noah to "round up" the innocent infants who were, remember, genetically and morally poisoned. In this case, I think we have to look to a higher purpose overriding God's will.reformedbeliever said:
Same with the Canaanites that God told the children of Israel to drive out, or in some cases kill, every man, woman, and child before possessing the land. God knew that their sin was come to the full and that His purposes could be stymied if some lived (which later proved to be the exact case).
So, you are right. In fact, there is a sin unto death that even a believer can be guilty of. It is better for that one to die than to live. This is God's will in order that His purpose may be fulfilled.
However, we know from scripture that God created hell for Satan and his angels. Hell has to "expand itself" in order to accomodate the lost -- every one of them!
skypair
Absolutely not. First off, He witnesses to each person who is accountable because every such one is given an awareness of Him in their conscience/soul. That alone made you without excuse at the judgment seat. But then I'm sure He sent you the word, which John says is Jesus Spirit, and you chose to believe, right?J.D. said:
It was your choice, right? Now the Spirit entered with the word and gave you power to do it but you had the "ability" to choose either way.
So what was that "power?" It was God's Spirit testifying with your spirit, just as John says, ""of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment AND that you could be the child of God."
No. Clearly not. BUT the Spirit wasn't "in you" until the word entered into your mind, emotions, and will -- your spirit. Then I contend that, if one believes, one is "filled with the Spirit" (mind, emotions, and will"), repents and receives Christ by that power (did you experience that?). But if one does not believe or does not respond, one is said to have "turned back unto perdition" (Heb 10:39) or one "believes in vain" (1Cor 15:2).
But your salvation is NOT as Calvinists say -- you were regenerated before hearing. The INDWELLING Spirit, which is what regeneration is, is given to believers post salvation.
skypair
Allan said:
Allan, I've come to expect these wacky theories from some around here, but you too?
Deal with the WORDS of scripture. "Ye CANNOT believe".
EDITED: Sorry Allan, "wacky" is not the right word. I was associating you with some things YOU didn't say. I think you're right inasmuch as those thousands saved on the day of pentecost were previously blind. But how did those that were previously blinded suddenly become un-blind? And you contradict yourself because you start out by saying that the blindness was God's judgement on them but then you say it was temporary. How could it be judgement if it was only temporary? And what about those thousands that were not saved? Why were they judged in finality but others were temporarily judged? Is there any consistency in your view?
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skypair said:
Does conviction come before or after belief? The Spirit does the convicting, right? Weren't you convicted of your sins, then you repented? What power wrought conviction in your heart?
If you can believe in Christ in your own natural ability, then you only need the word, not the Spirit. The preaching of the word should be sufficient in speaking to our good senses whereby we can make a rational decision to follow Christ. True? If so, why does God send His Spirit into the world to convince men of sin? He's wasting His time. He should send more preachers, that's all.
Does anyone have the ability to choose that which he does not desire? If a man has nothing but hatred in his heart for God, does he have the ability to come to God by his own choice?
And if the ability to choose rightly has been given to every person, how come none of my friends were saved on the night that I was saved? They heard the same sermon, sat on the same pew, but none of them were effected. In fact, they got a big laugh out of the whole thing. What made the difference between me and them? Was there something good in me, did I have more sense, more intelligence?