What say you

[Winman]

I think FAL is missing something, when the woman was caught in the act of adultery, the law demanded that she be stoned. Did Jesus demand that she be stoned? NO, he had mercy on her. So, the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, to convict and convince that we are sinners worthy of death. But Jesus taught there was a greater law, a law of mercy and forgiveness.

I am not saying we should let criminals run free, but the law should be tempered with mercy, which I think we do have today, well, maybe we have gone overboard on mercy, but still, that is how our government should operate, justice tempered with mercy to those who turn from sin.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Those aren't universal?

No, those are just for the Jews.

Subsequently God wrote them on the hearts of all mankind according to Romans. Must've been a mistake there to do so.

 

[quantumfaith]

No, those are just for the Jews.

Subsequently God wrote them on the hearts of all mankind according to Romans. Must've been a mistake there to do so.

You say it must have been a mistake to do so, a mistake of God to write them on the hearts of man. This seems to me to be perfunctorily deficient.

 

[preacher4truth]

You say it must have been a mistake to do so, a mistake of God to write them on the hearts of man. This seems to me to be perfunctorily deficient.

Not at all. Your inability to detect sarcasm, especially when my post started off as such is, well, not surprising really.

 

[quantumfaith]

Not at all. Your inability to detect sarcasm, especially when my post started off as such is, well, not surprising really.

And you failed to detect my message as well. BTW, that is not surprising either. Furthermore, this "sarcasm", hmmm seems as though I remember you criticizing me on previous occasions for using the literary device of sarcasm.

 

[preacher4truth]

And you failed to detect my message as well. BTW, that is not surprising either. Furthermore, this "sarcasm", hmmm seems as though I remember you criticizing me on previous occasions for using the literary device of sarcasm.

Yours wasn't sarcasm at all. But hey, nice try, albeit it's altogether dishonest of you to make such a pretense in retro.

So, you're saying you hold grudges about the past? Yes?

 

[freeatlast]

The problem I have with it is that God gave those laws to Israel, which was a Theocracy, governed by God who gave His words, laws and revelations to His appointed prophets. We do not live in a Theocracy. Our country is governed by wicked men who seek to please themselves, not God, men/women who have no direct revelation from God as did the OT prophets, and who couldn't care less what God says.

There is a huuuge difference in my opinion.

But that was not my question.

 

[freeatlast]

God's requirements for us have changed over the ages.

He has not.

HankD

That was not my question.

 

[freeatlast]

I think FAL is missing something, when the woman was caught in the act of adultery, the law demanded that she be stoned. Did Jesus demand that she be stoned? NO, he had mercy on her. So, the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, to convict and convince that we are sinners worthy of death. But Jesus taught there was a greater law, a law of mercy and forgiveness.

I am not saying we should let criminals run free, but the law should be tempered with mercy, which I think we do have today, well, maybe we have gone overboard on mercy, but still, that is how our government should operate, justice tempered with mercy to those who turn from sin.

None of that address’ the question. You are side stepping the question.

 

[freeatlast]

You say it must have been a mistake to do so, a mistake of God to write them on the hearts of man. This seems to me to be perfunctorily deficient.

So let me ask again.
If all the OT ceremonies, feasts, and rituals (religious aspects) were left out how many here who claim to know and love the Lord would be comfortable, even desire, to live in a country that holds to the rest of OT laws (the judicial laws) of God in regards to lawlessness to govern the nation?
Would God's way of governing enhance a nation or harm it? Would it come closer to satisfying justice or injustice?

 

[Amy.G]

Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Those aren't universal?

Did I say that? If you will go back and read what I posted earlier in this thread, I said that I thought our laws were already based on the 10 commandments. But you have always disagreed with me on everything, so I guess you had to maintain your quota.

In case you don't know, there are 613 OT laws. Which ones do you want our government to put into law? All of them?

 

[Amy.G]

So let me ask again.
If all the OT ceremonies, feasts, and rituals (religious aspects) were left out how many here who claim to know and love the Lord would be comfortable, even desire, to live in a country that holds to the rest of OT laws (the judicial laws) of God in regards to lawlessness to govern the nation?
Would God's way of governing enhance a nation or harm it? Would it come closer to satisfying justice or injustice?

I'm really trying to understand your question, but I just don't know where you're going with it. God's ways are always right, and if everyone in this country were Christian and loved the Lord and obeyed Him, we would have a wonderful place to live. But that is not the case.
God's laws are just. I have to admit though, I would not want my son stoned to death for disobedience. There was a time in his life when if he had lived in OT days, he would have been. I am thankful we live under the law of grace.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Barbaric punishments for a barbaric period in time.

The laws themselves weren't barbaric, but were to teach the people of that time an iota of civilization. I mean really, who thinks to boil a goat in its mother's milk??? But evidently some did (probably for some pagan religious ceremony since most of the OT laws were meant to turn the people away from the rampant idol worship of the day).

Consequences were severe, but in those days life was severe. A rebellious child might threaten the physical security of a village. You send a kid out to watch the sheep and the lions attack the herd because the kid refused, what happens? People go hungry.

Do we think stoning a child to be barbaric nowdays? Of course. Then again, we think electrocution is as well, when a mere 20 years ago, it was appropriate.

Times change and cultures change along with them. God knew what the peoples of the OT needed in terms of laws and punishments. He gave dietary laws that would increase the strength of His people in that time. We don't follow them today, because God made it obvious that most of those laws were no longer needed.

Christ left us with two. There are eight others that are convenient subcatagories of those two. But He gave the punishment side of things over to the governments of man to decide. Why? I suppose He decided we were civilized enough to handle it.

Reading through this thread, though makes me wonder......

 

[HankD]

That was not my question.

I'm doing the best I can brother.

After going back to the O/P several times, I have no idea what your question really is.


HankD

 

[freeatlast]

I'm really trying to understand your question, but I just don't know where you're going with it. God's ways are always right, and if everyone in this country were Christian and loved the Lord and obeyed Him, we would have a wonderful place to live. But that is not the case.
God's laws are just. I have to admit though, I would not want my son stoned to death for disobedience. There was a time in his life when if he had lived in OT days, he would have been. I am thankful we live under the law of grace.

Let me say again, this is not about religion or salvation, being under the law, grace, mercy or anything relating to the worship of God. This is about how should we set up or governing laws as Christians? So Amy if God's ways are just and right why would anyone who claims to be a follower of Him not want what is just and right? If His ways are the best why would any Christian not desire His best?

If we are told in the bible it is a crime to murder, then should we not seek that to be our standard of law with its called for consequesnces? If we are told itis a crime for a child to hit a parent, then should we not seek that as a law for the nation with the called for consequesnces?

There are about 26 states that still have criminal offences on the books for an adulterer even though they are rarely enforced. So at one time we knew it was a criminal offense to do that, but today we don't want that kind of restriction on us. Can you answer why? I can. The world wants nothing to do with anything that hinders their freedom for pleasure even if it harms another. The sad thing is that the church has jumped on board.

So what is wrong with a law against adultery and the punishment the same the Lord calls for? Nothing except it would go against our rebellious hearts. God’s governing laws are not evil. The same with the rest of the law that deals with a national values and keeping the people safe and secure.
You mentioned your son. We already have on the books laws against children who are rebellious, strike their parents and such, but we put them in juvenile prisons. That was not God's best. I would not want my child put to death either, but if that is God’s best for a crime he does then I support it because I believe God has the right answers to govern a nation.

If God's standards for children was good in government to protect the parents and society in the past is it not good for today? Forget about the religious aspect. Just focus on the laws that God gave for governing a nation that do not deal with the religious aspect of the law. Then answer do you really believe that God's ways are right and best and would you want them to be the standards of the nation?

Forget about what the lost want. This is about what a claimed child of God wants. What do you want? God’s standards for governing a nation in the judicial matters or man’s?

 

[Amy.G]

Forget about what the lost want. This is about what a claimed child of God wants. What do you want? God’s standards for governing a nation in the judicial matters or man’s?

God's standards are revealed in Christ, who fulfilled the Law and as a result we now live in the age of grace, which is God's way. The old has passed away and the new has come. I am thankful for it.

 

[freeatlast]

Barbaric punishments for a barbaric period in time.

The laws themselves weren't barbaric, but were to teach the people of that time an iota of civilization. I mean really, who thinks to boil a goat in its mother's milk??? But evidently some did (probably for some pagan religious ceremony since most of the OT laws were meant to turn the people away from the rampant idol worship of the day).

Consequences were severe, but in those days life was severe. A rebellious child might threaten the physical security of a village. You send a kid out to watch the sheep and the lions attack the herd because the kid refused, what happens? People go hungry.

Do we think stoning a child to be barbaric nowdays? Of course. Then again, we think electrocution is as well, when a mere 20 years ago, it was appropriate.

Times change and cultures change along with them. God knew what the peoples of the OT needed in terms of laws and punishments. He gave dietary laws that would increase the strength of His people in that time. We don't follow them today, because God made it obvious that most of those laws were no longer needed.

Christ left us with two. There are eight others that are convenient subcatagories of those two. But He gave the punishment side of things over to the governments of man to decide. Why? I suppose He decided we were civilized enough to handle it.

Reading through this thread, though makes me wonder......

We live in a nation that has legalized the murdering through the horrendous slaughter millions of babies and you think that in times past they were barbaric? If you think we are not as barbaric then those of the OT then watch this as there is nothing new under the sun and man is not any better today then 4 thousand years ago.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/ThisIsAbortion-Download.wmv

 

[freeatlast]

God's standards are revealed in Christ, who fulfilled the Law and as a result we now live in the age of grace, which is God's way. The old has passed away and the new has come. I am thankful for it.

Then we should do away with all the laws in our nation that agree with the bible because we are under grace, correct?

 

[Amy.G]

Then we should do away with all the laws in our nation that agree with the bible because we are under grace, correct?

Of course not. But the bible says that God has ordained every nation and it's leaders. In our case, we have reaped what we've sown. But our laws are already based on God's 10 commandments. If they have failed, it's our own fault because we (the church) have become too much like the world and allowed it to happen. Abortion is a stench in the nostrils of God and it's only a matter of time before He judges this nation for it. Not to mention adultery, divorce, homos*xuality, our idolatrous worship of money.....

But to bring back the OT Law that was meant for Israel would be wrong in my opinion because God Himself has done away with it.

 

[menageriekeeper]

So what is wrong with a law against adultery and the punishment the same the Lord calls for? Nothing except it would go against our rebellious hearts. God’s governing laws are not evil. The same with the rest of the law that deals with a national values and keeping the people safe and secure.
.
.
.
Then answer do you really believe that God's ways are right and best and would you want them to be the standards of the nation?

But OT laws aren't God's best. God's best came to earth in form of a man and gave Himself as the sacrifice so these penalties no longer need applied. The rules are still good for "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", but the heavenly penalties, the penalties God required for disobeying those laws have been paid. All that is left is the penalties humans enforce on one another.

We live in a nation that has legalized the murdering through the horrendous slaughter millions of babies and you think that in times past they were barbaric?

Oh, we're still a barbarous people. As long as this earth exists in its corrupted form, there will be barbarism. And I agree, there is little new under the sun, except the Son. Because He came we can be assured that justice has been fulfilled, even if we can't see it from here.