What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

Context - Context - Context

The context of Matthew 7:21-29 is not eternal. There is nothing in the passage that gives us those clues. In fact it is quite the opposite. The very first verse says "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

There are two phrases that give us our context. First is enter the kingdom of heaven (should literally be the kingdom of the heavens). This is not speaking of eternity, but rather the coming kingdom of Christ. When comparing Scripture with Scripture we see that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years before it is given back to God and the throne becomes the throne of God and the Lamb.

Second it says he who does the will of My Father will enter. Works are in view which means eternal salvation is in view. If this has to do with eternity then we have a clear contradiction between this passage and Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4 and 5.

Works NEVER enter the picture of eternal salvation.

Marcia we are made righteous with the righteousness of Christ when we are saved, but after that point we are to be about the Master's business until He returns. The white raiment is the righetous acts of the saints, which are the works that stand the test of fire.

Rev. 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

We are to clothe ourselves. When we are saved the righteousness is put on use. We have nothing to do with it.

But Scripture gives us a clear distinction between eternal salvation and what is expected of believers to be particpants at the wedding feast.

You can check our Rev. 19:14 and Rev. 3:5. Both of these verbs are middle voice verbs which means the subject is the doer.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is a future action, which means its not talking about past salvation, and it is the overcomer that is clothing himself in the white raiment.

Now compare this with Revelation 4:4 which says And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

These 24 elders (which most mistakenly say are humans) are clothed in white raiment, but this is a passive verb which means they were clothed by Another not themselves. These are angels who did not rebel with Satan. They retained the original white raiment they had when they were created.

Again when we compare Scripture with Scripture and build line upon line and precept upon precept we see that there are two groups of Christians. There are overcomers and there are those that are overcome by Satan, the world and/or the flesh. Overcomers overcome Satan, the world and the flesh.

All of this is millenial in scope and not eternal.

 

SFIC if this is true then why isn't there a rebuke from the Lord that they were lying about what they did? He never told them they were lying about what they did. He just told them that they were working lawlessness, which shows that Jesus acknowledges their work, but it wasn't the will of the Father for them to be doing what they were doing.

It wasn't that they were lying. The Greek structure of the text shows that these fellows expected Jesus to respond in a positive manner. Why would they be expecting Jesus to answer in a postive manner if they knew they were lying.

Now the conclusion you have to draw is that not only were these mean not doing what they were saying they did, but they believed Jesus couldn't tell whether they were lying or not because they expected Jesus to affirm them, which means He wouldn't have been able to tell they were lying. That's just way too much assumption placed on the text.

We just need to let the text say what it says and conform to Scripture even though it may be difficult to accept.

These people performed these acts, and to do so they have to be saved individuals. But they weren't doing the will of the Father, because instead of prophesing and casting out demons they were supposed to be encouragers, helpers and prayer warriors (whatever it was that the Father willed for their lives) instead of doing what they did.

You can't do those things as an unsaved person. It says they cast out demons and that is an impossibility as an unbeliever because as SFIC said Satan can not cast out Satan.

 

No kingdom millenial rule is mentioned here. The "kingdom of heaven," however, is. All believers go to the kingdom of heaven!

Jesus would never say to a believer: "DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' The word "lawlessness" describes that which is hostile to God and at enmity with God. This is not the state of a believer, no matter what kind of a believer he is. How could a believer have reason to fear being told by Jesus, "I never knew you?"

You have not explained how Jesus could say to a blood-bought believer, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, an adopted child of God, "I never knew you."

 

Yes in fact it is. This is the message of Christ's kingdom. His kingdom will last 1,000 years before it is returned to the Father and the throne becomes the throne of God and the Lamb.

All believers can see the kingdom of the heavens, but not all will enter the kingdom of the heavens. Only those that do the will of my Father. There a great number of Christians that aren't doing the will of the Father, but doing their own will. They will not enter the kingdom of the heavens.

Again the kingdom of the heavens is not eternity, it is speaking of the heavenly realm of rule where Satan and his angels are currently ruling from.

Eternity is not the context of this passage. There are a number of contradictions you place on Scriptures holding eternity as the context of this passage.

No you are placing personal opinion onto Scripture and letting your emotions interpret Scripture instead of Scripture.

I know the emotional side of us doesn't want to accept this, but in reality we have to let the Bible say what the Bible says. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus won't say this to a believer.

We've got to quit looking at Scripture through 21st eyes and the attitude that Jesus would never say that to me or some other believer because they are saved. So what you are in fact saying is that I can be saved and then go off and do whatever is that I please to do because Jesus won't speak to me that way.

The Bible presents matters in black and white. You are either for God or you are against God. You are either a child or an enemy. But you can't view that is absolute 100% certainties. Peter told Jesus he wasn't going to allow Him to die and Jesus called Peter Satan.

Why did He do that? Because Peter was an enemy of God at that point. Saved, but still an enemy. If we are doing the Father's will they are practically acting as children of God. If however we are in rebellion then while we are still eternally a child of God as far as eternal salvation goes, we are practically a child of the devil during our rebellion.

Bottom line is we are going to be held accountable to God whether we want to believe it or not. And not everyone is going to come up roses, accordiing to Scripture.

Exactly. If you as a saved individual are doing your own thing instead of God's thing then you are at enmity with Him.

Because just like these that said Lord, Lord there are untold numbers of Christians that are living for self and not for God. There are even many, many Christians that are doing "good" things in the name of the Lord that will have their works burned, becuase it wasn't the will of the Father and it wasn't done in the Spirit, but in the flesh.

Adoption hasn't happened yet. Adoption has to do with sonship, which has to do with rulership, which has to do with the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

 

Very few have the gift of healing hands. Most are healed from the own faith. How many times did you hear Jesus say, "thy faith has made the whole?"

They did it in the name of Jesus because the person receiving the blessing believed. However, they themselves faild to believe.

Not sure how you can separate the melinium reign from everlasting live. As was said before, there are only two places, heaven and hell. If Jesus doesn't know you you won't get into heaven. You can call it what you want but if it ain't hell them it must be heaven.

 

Satan can't cast out Satan. Satan can't cast out his own demons through an unsaved person even though the one receiving the exorcism is a believer. That just can't happen.

You either have to hold to the people were lying, but we are given no indication that that is the case. Or they people did what they claimed to do, and by so doing they are saved individuals, because Satan can not cast himself out.

The Bible separates it. The kingdom of Christ is the next age that we will enter as believers. An age is a definite period of time with a beginning and an end. Therefore it can not be eternity.

 

AMEN LeBuick!

The Millennial reign IS NOT the same as everlasting life. When we are born again, we have everlasting life at that moment. The Millennial reign is NOT the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Anybody can say "Lord, Lord"--I've heard many, many unsaved people call Jesus Lord---they know "of" the Lord Jesus, but they don't know the Lord Jesus as Savior. Take a look at many in the Word of Faith movement, for example. (Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, etc.) These are false teachers.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What part of "I never knew you" does anyone not understand?

 

Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, it is the same thing. Its the kingdom that Christ is going to establish at his return.

 

No, I certainly believe that the first requirement for salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Then comes the result of being born again which is manifest in a change in our lives and sincere decipleship as this verse implies by saying we must pick up our cross and follow Him. Do you honestly believe that someone who doesn't follow Christ as Lord id saved? I don't. Jonah found out what happens when you try to run away from God and so will everyone who tries to deceive themselves into thinking that being a Christian is easy. It's not, as Dietrich Bonnhoffer said in "The Cost of Decipleship."

 

False teachers, yes, but just how exactly do you know they are unsaved? How do you know they never accepted Jesus as savior? When did you become omnipotent?

Besides, the entire context of the Sermon on the Mount was the Kingdom. It's about the things he likes and the things he hates. It even begins with such:

Matthew 5:1-3: And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a [the] mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

Satan currently rules from the Kingdom of the Heavens, but we have the opportunity to do so one day as well, and that's what this passage is talking about. It's talking about works.

 

I’ve said before that you can’t make an analogy between Peter and a believer today indwelt by the HS. That is not a good analogy. And we shouldn’t base theology on narrative.

I’ve never heard anyone interpret the Peter passage as Peter being Satan. Jesus was talking to Satan, who was influencing Peter. That is not the same as calling Peter Satan, as though they were the same.

A believer cannot be an enemy of God. Passage after passage states we have been reconciled with God when we become believers. Surely you are familiar with those.

Your distinction of seeing heaven and entering heaven is not in scripture. Either one is eternally with God after death or one is eternally separated from God. There is no halfway point.

As far as Satan casting out Satan, the people in Matt. 7 are saying they cast out demons, but that doesn't mean they actually did. Either they are lying or they think they cast out demons. This happens today all the time.

 

Never said I was *omnipotent--only One is omnipotent. According to Scripture, we are told to discern--I'm not judging these false teachers, but I am a fruit inspector--these verses tell it like it is:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

*omnipotent

OMNIP'OTENT, a. supra.

1. Almighty; possessing unlimited power; all powerful. The being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.

2. Having unlimited power of a particular kind; as omnipotent love.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

The only One Who is omnipotent is God--He is also omniscient (all knowing) and omnipresent (present in all places at the same time).

Give me your scripture reference of "Kingdom of the Heavens"--I don't find that in my Bible and neither do I find Satan ruling in the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

 

The fruit inspector, you go :laugh: :thumbs:

 

As I have said many times before it doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what Joe Blow believes or his wife Sally Sue. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says.

So does the Bible require the acceptance of Christ as Lord for salvation? The answer to that question is no. The two things that God requires for the payment of sin is death and shed blood. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary and that satisfied God's requirements for payment of sin.

If you believe He did that on your behalf then you are saved. That is the gospel message of eternal salvation. Anything that is taken away or added to that simple message is outside of what Scripture has to say on the matter.

Once again the Bible says that the result of eternal salvation is a spirit that is made alive by the Holy Spirit. We are made a new creation neither Jew nor Gentile, but we are part of the one new man in Christ.

We are created unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. Works are not a guarantee in a believers life. They SHOULD be, but they aren't a guarantee. That's what the Bible has to say about the matter.

It doesn't matter what I believe. What does the Bible say? If you believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God then you are saved no doubt about it end of discussion.

That's sad, because the Bible says otherwise.

Becoming a Christian is the easiest thing in the world. Why would you and others try to make such a simple message that even children are capable of understanding and try to complicate the matter?

Becoming saved and discipleship are two different matters and you can tell exactly why in the sentence that you just wrote. Eternal salvation is a free gift that is given to us by God. There are no costs involved and there are no strings attached.

Discipleship on the other hand is EXTREMELY costly. Jesus said we are to count the cost.

 

Why would that be? We make analogies of people in the OT. What is so sacred about Peter that we can't draw an analogy from him?

Why is that? What chapter and verse says we are limited to only certain parts of Scripture as to where we can draw doctrine and theology from?

Jesus was talking to Satan? We do you get that? The conversation was between Jesus and Peter. Satan wasn't even in the picture until Jesus called Peter Satan.

That's just plainly not what the Bible teaches.

So you don't think God cares when you sin, because everythings peaches and creme between you and God? Sorry again that's not the picture the Bible portrays. The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It is a fearful thing falling into the hands of the living God.

Those were written to believers.Trust me when we are in a state of open rebellion things are not rosey between us and God. If we are not about doing His will then we are actively working against Him. If we are not for Him we are against Him. If we are not His friend then we are His enemy.

First that's not my distinction. The distinction is seeing the kingdom of the heavens and entering the kingdom of the heavens. That is absolutely in Scripture (John 3).

But the point that is missing is after death its not eternity. There is another age to come after death and it will last 1,000 years. And then and only then will eternity begin for mankind.

Then why isn't there a rebuke from Jesus regarding their lies? There was no rebuke, because they were telling the truth. They did those things, but it wasn't the will of the Father. We just have to let Scripture say what Scripture says.

 

Every mention in the gospel of Matthew should be translated the kingdom of the heavens. Look up any interlinear site or find an interlinear Bible and it will show you that heaven is actually plural.

It is actually referenced in the Aleph text in John chapter 3 as well.

Satan was the original ruler of the earth and still holds his rule over earth today. He is called the prince of the power of the air and the ruler of this world among just a couple of references. I think there are more, but that's the only two I can think of off the top of my head.

And your reference to Matthew 7 is in relation to false teachers not the general population. The only reference that comes even close to people being able to tell if someone is saved or not is that it is said that they will know you are My disciples because you love the bretheren.

But even that is a reference to being able to tell not some much if they are saved, but if they are committed. So even that reference falls short.

Bottom line it's not our job to figure out whose saved and whose not. We are to trust the people and if they say they are saved then we treat them as such praying for them, holding them accountable, teaching them, rebuking them if necessary, encouraging them. And then if it boils down to it disfellowshiping with them while they are in unrepentant rebellion.

Why do so many folks think we need to be figuring out who is saved when God said only He knows the heart of man.

 

That sounds hauntingly like a teacher at a Bible college that I attended when I was younger. He gave a test once and wanted a list of the 17 steps to being saved.

The first requirement? The first requirement is the only requirement:

Believe (punctiliar) on the Lord Jesus and you will (certainty) be saved.

This is what should happen after one is saved, but it's no certainty. It's what is necessary for obedience, but obedience is not necessary to be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

Yep, I believe exactly what it says.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

Too bad you don't believe the Scriptures.

Now, you're talking about discipleship instead of being saved. No wonder you don't believe the Scriptures about what it takes to be saved; you keep mixing messages.

Discipleship is hard. It might even require you to give your life.

Being saved costs you nothing, but it cost the Lord dearly.

 

Linda, if you're not all-knowing, then how do you know what is in a man's heart in order to be so judgmental of him to say that he's unsaved?

 

It is very hard for us to let go off what we have been taught apart from scripture. We are to know how each (Jew and Gentile) is justified. "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith," Romans 3:30. We can do away with just about all the contradictions if we would only believe the gospel of Paul.


Those Jews saved before and after Pentecost under the gospel of John the Baptist were to "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". I believe those of Israel could be saved in that manner up to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

I make no such assumption that no one preached to that generation. The Christian message that began after Christ's revelations to Paul has been continuous. We know pretty well when Paul, Peter and John died. Paul circa 66 A.D, and Peter a short time later perhaps around 67, and of course John around the turn of the century.


As previously stated it is difficult to determine if John was released from His handshake with Paul that he would not preach "their gospel" to a Gentile. James, Peter and John understood their mission was only to the Jew, and "their gospel" was different than Paul's for "their gospel was built on those of "blood covenant circumcision" with their God. The book of Acts shows the Old will pass away as the New is phased in.


Everything I can find points to John remaining in the "kingdom gospel", just a Peter for they were saved under the old economy, for they still worshipped on the Sabbath, and kept the laws and the ordinances that included "blood sacrifice".


What makes it so very hard for people to come to terms understanding, and dealing with is there were two gospel's preached during the lives of the Apostles. I am close to the conclusion that John was released from His handshake with Paul upon the death of Paul and the death of the Temple and Jerusalem. When we read John's Gospel we see God allows John to now publish and bring to mind Words of Jesus while He was on earth. We find in the Gospel of John things that agree with the gospel of Paul, and not that of John the Baptist. The Bible plainly tells us the Apostles had no idea of what Jesus was talking about most of the time. But we have to understand the Holy Spirit would not allow John to write His gospel until he that would tarry was taken away. Until John wrote His book the gospels of the "kingdom of John the Baptist was still be preached", along with the gospel of Paul of the Body of Christ.


John can now tell all that he has come to the conclusion that the Jew "can" be saved just as the Gentile. Paul told us the "law of ordinances" was nailed to the Cross. But we know the Apostles, and James continued in the Laws and the Ordinances. So they did preach another gospel than that of Paul.


We know Paul was shown he was to preach the gospel, and will leave off water baptizing. We see John was shown and came to the same conclusion for all it does is "create" confusion. But all the main line denominations do it, and is what separates many that believe so much alike in most other areas. Give a good look to the writings of John's Gospel, and his three books.


No one hardly notice's, or mentions. John will not even come close to mentioning "repent of sins", or "water" baptism. There is a reason. The "great commission" is no longer the gospel for any today. In that day of Jesus, and Pentecost, and the Temple and Jerusalem, Yes, but not for today. If we can come to understand this, scripture will so easily fall into place.


We see that eventually the Jew (not today) and even all before Damascus Road will be saved "through" instead of "by". Their "through" is future, but until then scripture tells us the circumcised ( and all, even back to Adam) had to shed blood of animals for that is what God required.


Peter tells us about this in I Peter 1:5, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." This is to help us understand our "through" while we live, for we are immediately "spiritually" saved. The Jew and all the others before is a two step process. "By" shedding blood of animals, and Israel being promised "the physical earth", will justify for "by the power of God they are held through faith that saves, and will be accomplished in the last time", above 1:5.

Calm down now, and lets see what is happening here. I thought you knew scripture, but I see you can prove nothing by scripture or otherwise. I did some walking for you before, and I'm happy to do it again. We have to be familiar with what Christ revealed to Paul to understand scripture. We are to "understand" scripture, and not try to interpret it.


Just let these verses speak to you, without any spin, and they will buttress His Word . Romans 7:4, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." This is the Word from the beginning, and then on this side of great deluge. It has never been rescinded. The married are to be fruitful and multiply, and this we do by preaching, teaching, and families bringing their children to Christ.


I Corinthians 12:27, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." This is Now that we have become "one" with Him and are unique and special. He has taken us in His love for us.

Scripture please for we that are One with Him, in His Body. He is my Lord, and He is the King of the Jews, higher than all other Kings. He has made kings and priests of His people, and there will be other kings that will bring their glory and honor.

Agree for another time

We are in Him and He in us.

Aren't we among those He inherits?

Who is it we serve. Our Lord that inherited us.