What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

You know it is very hard to follow your posts when you comment on something that I say, but you don't include everything in context and then you make me go back and have to search out why I said what I said.

Anywho trying to determine whether John and Paul preached the same gospel is not the same thing as differing between Catholic and Church of Christ doctrine. At least in my mind. Now if you find it to be the same then so be it. I don't see your point and I definitely don't think it is supported by Scripture, especially in the case of John. Now the other apostles I could see your point, but not with John, just based on how long he lived.

Really. Please show me one quote where I have insulted you. I have never told you that you are incapable of proving anything with Scripture, which is what you said to me. I have said many times that the Scripture you are using doesn't prove your point, but that is totally differnt than calling you inept and uncapable.

Another thing. If I did insult you as you say, why wouldn't you just PM me and let me know what I said that was insulting and give me an opportunity to make things right instead of trying to make two wrongs into a right?

Just show me where I said something insulting in public and I publicly apologize, but throwing mud, because someone else did doesn't make mud slinging okay.

So now Christ is a polygamist? And here the Mormons were actually right on this one...I don't think so. Israel is the bride of the Father. You can see this throughout the OT. Overcoming, faithful Christians will be married to Christ in the future.

Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say the church IS married to Christ, and now you are saying that the church is His body LIKE marriage.

Which is it? Is the church married to Christ or just His body?

 

(William Plumer, "Theology for the People")

No two things are more contrary to each other,
than the vileness of man and the purity of God.

Sin is hateful to God.
It has dug every grave.
It fills hell with groans.

"From the sole of your foot to the top of your
head there is no soundness--only wounds
and welts and open sores." Isaiah 1:6

The whole nature of man is affected by sin:
the understanding is darkened;
the will is corrupt;
the conscience is defiled;
the memory is polluted;
the imagination is depraved;
the throat is an open sepulcher;
the tongue is deceitful;
the mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
the feet are swift to shed blood;
the eyes are full of adultery;
the heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked.

The whole head is sick,
the whole heart is faint!

Man is by nature ruined. He is lost.
Men are . . .
sinners,
wicked,
ungodly,
unrighteous,
corrupt,
deceitful,
vile,
ungrateful,
children of the devil,
slaves of iniquity.

"But God, who is abundant in mercy, because
of His great love that He had for us, made us
alive with the Messiah even though we were
dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved!
He also raised us up with Him and seated us
with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, so
that in the coming ages He might display the
immeasurable riches of His grace in His
kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Eph. 2:4-7

 

This will be another long one. I'm going to answer each individually, and up to you whether you may wish to answer any or all. and all are welcome. But I ask that if you refute, to give thorough answers with scripture to back up. I believe we are trying to cover too much ground, moving from one thought to another, not connected.

Is not Christ in His "kingdom"? Is not Christ in His "kingdom" in the "kingdom of God?

 

There is no such phrase in the Bible as the "bride of Christ", except in the minds of man with their great wisdom. Who is telling you the "bride of Christ" is in scripture. They are wrong, unless you can show that scripture.

 

Well that's one of those things that gets tricky with the fact that God is one God, but yet Three persons.

Is Christ in His "kingdom?" Technically the answer is yes, because Christ is God. However that's not the way Scripture lays things out. All that is created is God's kingdom, but when mentioned in Scripture it has to do mostly with a portion of the kingdom of God, namely the earth, which is a portion of God's kingdom.

God is God over it all, but He has placed rulers to manage it for Him if you will. Lucifer was given charge over the earth in the beginning, but fell. Therefore the earth needed a new ruler. So God created the man and the woman to rule together, but before they took the scepter Satan caused them to disqualify themselves.

God then promised Abraham an earthly seed and a heavenly seed as it dealt with the government of the earth. Israel was promised the earthly portion of the kingdom and will one day realize this ruler as the wife of Jehovah and they were offered the heavenly portion of the kingdom, but rejected that. Christ proved Himself in regard to Satan's test and proved Himself to be worthy to redeem that which Adam had lost which included the earth and the reign over it. Now Adam didn't actually rule, but he lost his right to rule.

So now Christ is gathering together faithful Christians who will become His bride and together they will rule in the stead of Satan in the heavenly sphere of the kingdom and the Christians are Abrahams spiritual seed.

That's a very brief look at matters and I would be more than happy to point you to some resource material that will deal in much more depth with Scriptural references.

 

Well the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either and neither is rapture, but you believe in both of those right? Now maybe the bride of Christ is not word for word mentioned, but the concept is definitely there, and I would argue that it is mentioned although it is said to be the bride of the Lamb, but Who is the Lamb-Christ. So the bride of Christ is an okay term to use.

I think you are one that says the bride of the Lamb is Israel, and please correct me if I'm wrong on that. But Israel can not be the bride of the Lamb, because Israel is the bride of the Father as established in the OT.

 

The Kingdom of the Heavens is nothing more than the rule of the heavens over the earth, and Satan is in the position of rulership over that right now. In the age to come, Christ will take the reins, and at the end of that age, hand control back over to God.

David and Saul is a picture of that. Saul was dethroned, so to speak, and David was anointed. But, although he had been anointed, did he take the throne? No. During the time that he was waiting to take his throne, he gathered those around him who were faithful, who would be ruling and reigning with him when he did take the throne, which would be when Saul died.

 

It is Christ Jesus that rules, not us. He is the Head, but man continues to believe they can change this.
Thanks for the invite, but I have the original source to pull from, which I didn't do before. I have been where you are. Won't you come follow Him, the Head of all wisdom and knowledge? It is no secret anymore. We find truth in the Old and the New, making distinction as directed by Christ from heaven as He revealed to Paul what He (God) had hidden.

 

As said before, wish I could express myself better, but it took Him 30 or so years to get through to me; however I'm a slow learner. Peter tells us it is very difficult to understand Paul, but to be in the Body of Christ we are to understand what Christ revealed to Paul. In the New Testament as presented in our Bibles, there are three (3) different gospels that is presented, and they are progressively presented to certain people, with specific wording, two with works, and one without. We are to understand when God is talking to us, and when He is not. Paul from His foundation on Christ says this is of the utmost importance,and Peter from His foundation on Jesus Christ tells his people it is of the utmost importance. Christ told His people while He was on earth He was talking to them only, and they had better pay attention as to what was written to them.


All I can say is until we understand the difference of justification by faith, and through faith, some of what God had hidden is still hidden to many. I urge you once more to read Hebrews 11, and believe what you read. From Adam on, until Damascus Road all were justified while they lived by faith. None are as they live saved through faith. Do we believe the Bible or what we have been taught by man? My Christian friend we are to understand our salvation, and we today cannot be saved by the gospel as presented in Acts 2, for that is by faith salvation for those of "works". That is the "great commission" gospel for the Jew and proselytes.

The "first great commission" is found in Matthew 10:1-22, and also Luke 9 and 10. The "second great commission" is found in Matthew 28, Mark 16, and Luke 24. Peter agrees with Mark 16 for the Jew. Put them all together and you have the "second great commission". This is the gospel Peter preached in Acts2:29-47. Is the way you are saved? Isn't this the Catholic belief? Peter is speaking only to the nation of Israel, and those Israelites that are not there, are "far off". Anybody you know have "gifts"? Shouldn't we make all things "common" as the "cults" do, and "Communists" countries want to do? What Temple could we go to, and wouldn't the "animal rights groups" get legislation to prohibit our blood sacrifices? This is not the Christian faith that Christ gave to us.

We today are saved under the gospel of the "grace commission" of Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved, by the Grace of God "through" the faith of Jesus Christ who did every work for us. We are not to believe any other gospel, other than that Christ revealed to Paul - Galatians 1:8.

 

Amen in part. You are saved as YOU live by what God tells you, and not by what He told David, Moses or anyone else not in the "dispensation" you are saved in. God demanded they be saved as He told them, in the "dispensation" they lived in, and they believed Him. God told them If you Do this, then I will do That. They had to be circumcised to set them apart. We don't. God would have killed Moses if Zipporah hadn't circumcised her son. God has to see the "blood". Is that what He tells us today to enter what He promised only His own, that you will "obey the ordinances of the Law; You will make blood sacrifice of animals to cover your sins until at the end you will be saved through the faith of one that will come, of whom you do not know His name that you must know."

 

The "types" are misapplied if they don't agree with His Word. Many believe types and shadows we now find of Jesus Christ's saving work of the Cross were understood by those of Old. The OT gives no such indication of this, or that they were to come Through His faith. They looked for a Messiah that would deliver them from their enemies, and place them in their earthly kingdom. We find these types today in the Bible in the New Testament. It is Jesus in John 3:14 that tells of His lifting up - "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." If types can't be proven they are wrong.

We can't use "types" to prove certain things. We need "scripture", and that's what we need here. You have to understand scripture and the law of the Jew of "betrothal", found in Deuteronomy 22:23-25. You have to understand the situation with Mary also. God has now given us everything He wants us to know, and we cannot know it unless we study the whole Bible, believe what He tells us from heaven, on this earth, and back in heaven as our risen Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God now seated on the right hand of His Father.

It is the opposite of what you say of contradictions, is it not? Your stance causes contradiction, and I agree the Bible will prove itself, as long as we don't leave (or don't believe) some of it out. What you believe is full of contradictions if for no other reason that you believe the "great commission" given to the nation Israel that a proselyte can also come to.

Is the following contradictory? "What must we do to be saved asks the Jew? Peter says You Mr. Jew must "repent of your sins, and You must be water baptized for the remission of your sins". Haven't you stated all are saved the same way? If so then you must eliminate any writings of Paul, the book of Acts, and also John's books which God allowed him to write to support and reinforce the authenticity of Paul's Epistles, just as Peter does earlier.

If we take the Body of Christ out, with the rapture, with the One spiritual Baptism; The Gentile salvation through faith "without works", with other truths, we have the salvation you speak of i.e. all have always been saved the same way. The gospel never changed you say. The "everlasting gospel" has not changed, but God tells men in His "dispensations" how to relieve the "fear of God" and what he (man) is to believe to accomplish this. All God wants us to do is believe Him when He speaks to us while we live.

If we do believe Christ did give to Paul his "dispensational" gospel for the Gentile and the Jew, we can now replace and make whole again the Word of God by believing the Epistles of Paul, the Book of Acts by Luke, and all the writings of the Apostle John.

 

My God bless you for your concern for my soul J. Jump, and I do appreciate it, but God has moved me from a position such as yours to where He wants me in His church.

Paul tells us we can't all be in the same place, so he asks the believer in II Timothy 2:7 to consider what he says, and the prayer the Lord will give us understanding. The prayer was answered in my case.

In verse 8 he asks we remember according to his gospel Christ from the seed of David was raised. We are to remember how we will be judged which is shown in Romans 2:16. "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." When we read his prayer in Ephesians we find our understanding comes by "spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. Ephesians 1:16-17, "Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him."

In other words we today are dependent on our Lord Christ Jesus in heaven, for some things He said while on earth do not pertain to us. He told us while He was here He did not come for any but His own. Do we believe Him or not? He tells Paul to make it more plain to us in II Corinthians 5:16-17, " Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." If we cannot accept this saying, can we accept our Lord Christ?

 

We Christians are also the sons of God.

Amen!

It is Christ that overcame, not we in Him. If we overcome, we are of works. You are putting us on the same level as Christ.

Now you say you have an understanding of "a marriage", when before you said it is impossible?

You have again misinterpreted scripture. It does not say He inherits all the heathens. If it did then everybody will be saved. Is this what you are saying? If so, it is not the Word of God you believe, or the Jewish religion, or the Christian religion of a Just God that will Judge all at the end.

We are not His until He inherits us, and then we are His, making our inheritance complete.

In your estimation, which forces continued contradiction of scripture.

 

Exactly. I apologize because I didn't make that clear in my post. But the bride of Christ will rule under Christ. Of course man is not going to supercede Christ. Check out the parable of the talent and the pounds. Faithful, overcoming Christians will be put in charge of various things in the coming reign of Christ. We will rule under His authority.

That's why it is so important that we be found faithful, becuase the unfaithful Christian will not participate in this aspect with Christ.

 

All are saved by God's grace through faith apart from works. All the righteous by faith shall live.

There has never been a different salvation for the OT and then in the NT under Paul. God has never accepted man's works as their way to Him. He ALWAYS rejects man's works when it comes to eternal salvation. So that would be another contradiction to say the OT folks were saved by their works and then NT folks are not.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to communicate, but that's what it seems to me.

 

Again eternal salvation is a one-time event and yes God has told people different things to believe throughout history, but salvation comes when they believe. God looked at the nation of Israel through the blood of the sacrifices they made, which satisfied Him pointing to the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world and pointing forward to the actual day that His Son would be literally crucified.

Today the blood of animals will not cover sin, because the ultimate Sacrifice has been given through Jesus Christ as all must come through His blood.

So we pretty much agree there.

 

Who says that we can't use types to prove certain things? The Bible certainly doesn't say that. The bottom line is if you find a NT teaching then you will find an OT type or shadow of it. If you don't find it in the OT then you are misunderstanding the NT.

The OT gives us what is coming in the NT and the NT further explains what was given in the OT. You can't take one without the other becuase they are perfectly harmonious.

A lot of people have said that, but they have failed to show any. And in actuality this view of Scripture eliminates all the contradictions that man has placed on Scripture with their traditional teachings.

First of all that wasn't the question that they asked in Acts 2. What must I do to be saved wasn't asked until Acts 16.

Peter was preaching to a group of people that were already eternally saved. That wasn't a messge of eternal salvation, it was a message of the kingdom, which was being reoffered to the nation of Israel at that time.

Exactly. God has told different groups of people different things to believe throughout history, but it is still grace through faith. It's just that the faith has been different for different dispensations as you say. That part we agree on.
Types are Scripture. People refuse to use types becuase they don't like some of the teachings they would have to accept.

Like not all Christians make up the bride of Christ, but only those that are faithful and overcoming. Well Christians don't like to hear that so they say you can't prove this with types. But not only is this Truth found in types in is further explained in the NT.

Jesus said that Moses wrote of Him and that all the prophets and the Psalms are about Him. Bascially all OT history is laid out in a typical fashion to help our understanding.

To deny the teachings of the types and shadows leaves us with an OT that is not much more than an Israeli history book.

But if we will allow God to open our spiritual eyes then we can really see His Word come alive in the OT. It's truly amazing!

 

It seems as though you have gotten the idea that I don't think we have to rely on Jesus Christ today and that is not true. Jesus Christ is our everything!!

And yes we become new creations. We are no longer Jews or Gentiles, no longer male or female, but we are part of the one new man in Christ. That has to do with the message of the Kingdom and how Gentiles can entertain the offer that Israel rejected and how Jews can still participate even though the offer of the Kingdom has been taken away from that nation.

 

The Bible tells us that we are all children of God, but not all children will be adopted as sons, which will happen in the future.

Not at all. We will never be on the level of Christ, but we have to understand and believe what the Bible tells us. And the Bible tells us that we can be co-heirs with Christ if we overcome just as He overcame.

We don't overcome through our own strength, but we overcome as we die to self and let the Holy Spirit manifest the life of Christ in us.

Some Christians will overcome the flesh, Satan and the world as Christ did and others will be overcome by one, two or all three of these things, and will not realize their inheritance.

How can you say this. I put the Scripture in the text. Here it is again Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession," Psalms 2:8. It says that Christ will receive the heathen as His inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession. I didn't make it up. That's what it says.

Again you have provided no Scripture evidence of this. No where in the Bible does it say that Christians, saved, born again - whatever you want to call us - are Christ's inheritance. If there is please show me so we can deal with that Scripture or Scriptures.

 

Yes, people take one extreme or the other, neither of which is scriptural.

One side realizes that their salvation is secure, but they don't want to have to deny self to be obedient, so they want to see that everyone will have all that the Lord has promised.

The other side says that you have to endure to the end to prove you're saved or to remain saved or whatever other sort of camoflauge they want to use to hide a works-based salvation. But, if you endure and you're saved, then you're part of the bride.

The types and pictures presented throughout Scripture in several places shows that the Bride is taken from the body of believers and not every believer will be part of the Bride.