What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

Continue ituttut reply to J. Jump

J. Jump: We do not become connected with Israel. When we are saved we become part of the one new man in Christ that is neither Jew nor Greek. That's how a Jew can still participate in this offer, they have to lose their national identity, because the offer was taken away from the Jews. So we become a one new man in Christ so that the offer is still not open to the Jews, but we are still descendants of Abraham fulfilling the promise to him, but we are connected to him through Christ.

Response: Amen! Ah, just as I thought. You do believe the gospel of Paul. End Response.

Incorrect. That was Paul's entire ministry. He preached this exact message to the Gentiles. That's why so many Jews had a hard time with Paul's ministry, because he was taken a message that was meant for them and giving it to the dogs.

Response: Paul is of the heavenlies (Ephesians, viz. 3:9-10). He is the only Apostle appointed by Christ Jesus from heaven, and given authority to preach to the Gentile, and he never preached the message of the Jew to a Gentile. He is not counted with the other Apostles based in Jerusalem.

We are to remember that the Jewish Apostolic church only had authority to preach the "kingdom gospel is at hand", and not the Body of Christ gospel of "through" faith, or the "rapture". End Response.

You lost me there. I'm not sure what you even mean.

Response: Your post stated the Bible was in error on this matter. End Response.

I agree with that, but Paul learned much more than the message of salvation by grace through faith.

Response: Then our conversations have not been in vain. End Response.

Couple of things. Jesus' kingdom will come to this earth, but that's not where the bride of Christ will be participating in the kingdom. If we are found worthy to be a part of the bride we will be ruling and reigning from the heavens where Satan and his angels are currently ruling from. Israel will be at the head of the nations on the earth ruling with Christ from the throne of David.

Response: We being in His Body are already married to Him. It is Israel in Jerusalem that is the Bride of the Lamb, and the "marriage supper" of the Lamb could last a long time during His thousand year reign. . End Response.


There are two aspects to the kingdom of Christ. Abraham was to have an earthly seed and a spiritual seed.

The offer of the earthly kingdom had already been promised to Israel. That will be fulfilled one day. What John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles were delivering was the offer to the heavenly (spiritual) part of the kingdom. That's why Matthew's Gospel actual is literally the kingdom of the heavens. It's plural because it is talking about the spiritual realm where Satan is currently ruling known as the heavens.

The 12 apostles are not in "their" kingdom yet as that is still future.

Response: Amen. End Response.


They will be part of the heavenly kingdom, but they will be ruling over Israel, while the bride of Christ will be ruling over the Gentile nations.

Response: Scripture tells us about the Apostles, but I'll not make a concrete pronouncement at this time of all in the Body of Christ. We are His inheritance. A third of the Angels rebelled, and I lean toward that number will again exist, and we could be it, for He has chosen us, and in Him we will be faithful forever. End Response.

This is a future fulfillment. It has not happened, but will happen one day.

Response: We do agree

 

The Jewish apostles were not limited to the kingdom message. They had to preach salvation by grace through faith to the generation of Jews that were no longer covered by animal sacrifices. From that generation of Jews forward they had to come through the blood of Christ just as any Gentile. And whey they did accept the death of Christ they lost their national identity as a Jew and became neither Jew nor Greek, but a part of the one new man in Christ just like everyone else.

The preached grace through faith and they preached the rapture and they continued to preach the kingdom.

I'm still not sure what you are talking about. The Bible is NEVER in error, just our understanding of Scriptures.

Please give Scriptural evidence to this. The marriage supper of the Lamb is yet future and will take place after the judgment seat of Christ, which is for Christians, the one new man in Christ.

Israel is not the bride of the Lamb, but rather the brother of the Lamb. Israel is the spouse of the Father not the Son.

Where are you getting this from Scripture?

Christ's government over this earth will be perfect from the heavenly and earthly realm that can be counted on. However I don't know that we can draw direct number correlations between Israel/believers and the number of angels, but I guess it certainly could be, who knows on that one, we just aren't told unless I just haven't seen that correlation yet

 

I said a believer cannot deny Christ - that is, meaningfully and deliberately say that Christ is not the Savior and/or to reject him as Savior/Lord. This does not mean a lost person cannot say "Lord."

The passage I think you are talking about means recognizing Jesus as Lord -- this was Jesus talking to Peter. In that case, Jesus said it was the HS who showed this to Peter. This does not mean lost people are unable to say the word "lord" or even think they believe in him. Many people believe in a false Jesus and call him Lord (such as the Mormons).

 

It has nothing to do with uttering words. I said to deny means to say something is untrue, and by that, you are believing it is untrue. I thought that was obvious. "Jesus is not my savior" or "Jesus is not the Savior." Now, I just typed those words but I am not denying Jesus because I do not believe what I just typed. To deny something involves a belief -- you are saying it is not true because you do not think it is true.

Blasphemy of the HS was ascribing the works of Satan to Jesus, so you would be denying the nature of Christ, saying and believing he is not the Messiah and saying he is not who he said he was. I can't imagine how a believer could say this.

They did do it in his name. They were condemned because they were never saved -- Jesus told them he never knew them.

I don't see a conundrum.

 

What you typed was not a denial at all: It was in quotes, and you explained your purpose in doing so, and that purpose had no basis in denying him. You are no more denying him than David was saying there is no God in Psalm 14:1.

Now, if you came on here simply stating, "There is not God", that would be a denial.

In Matthew 26:72, Peter denied Jesus with an oath. Then, only a couple of verses later, he added cursing and swearing to emphasize his denial. He even feigned not knowing "the man"; he didn't even know his name.

This is a denial.

Yet, Peter is a believer; he's saved, and he's not just "playing along"; he's emphatic.

By the same token, in Matthew 7, the call him "Lord". He doesn't call them liars, and he doesn't say they weren't working in his name. He calls them "workers of lawlessness"; they were doing what was right in their own eyes.

I find it bizarre that people think that unsaved people can work in God's name and call him "Lord" and be unsaved. That's like those who think that unsaved people are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

Jesus himself said this, why would you find it bizarre.

 

We are then to "repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins"?

Right

We dispensationalists know it is there. We know He is talking about a "dispensation" that will come, and this does not reveal what God had hidden. He has prophesied, and that dispensation will come, and sure enough it has. In that dispensation He speaks of, all things will be New. Who is it today that presents the "gospel of the grace of God through faith to the world". It is we Gentile's. It's true! It's all true.

We are free of the Law and it's ordinances, and were never meant to be under that covenant of Old. We look to the heavenlies today for that is where our redeemer is, and where He is, we are there with Him. He never promised us anything, but now gives us all. Oh the Unsearchable Riches of Christ.

You previously said Matthew is written to the Jew. So please read the Sermon on the Mount again. You will see Jesus references the heathen, the Gentile, but He never addressed us. They were not welcome at His table, and He would have told them to leave should any have been there. The Sermon on the Mount is to His disciples, which scripture says they came to Him. No Gentile was a disciple of His. We dare intrude where we are not welcome?

We are to read for understanding, not to interpret.

Yet He will save all Israel in that day. He has not forgotten those twelve Tribes.

Amen!

I agree with the understanding Through the faith of Christ Jesus we come, not our faith that saves or even being faithful. Are we of works? No, but some will be rewarded as a "good and faithful servant". Our one spiritual baptism has us sealed in, and we couldn't get out even if we wished to do so.

I can't find in scripture where they of covenant with God was promised other than the earth, with heaven coming to earth, and is to be the prayer for that kingdom to come. "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth," Revelation 5:10.

Good for you agree with me the Christian church began in Antioch, and not Jerusalem.

In this dispensation that is so. But not after the tribulation.

Doesn't scripture teach those saved through Israel's ministry are of the "Kingdom Church", of which Church James who will show you His to justify? I know those saved through Israel's failure are of the "Body Church" for it is the works of Jesus Christ that justifies us.

 

Jesus said no such thing.

If he did, quote it.

It's an assumption that you make, based on something that is not there.

 

Is Acts 2:38 the preaching of the Cross? That is coming By faith in "their" works as they were told to do. We today have never been told to come in this manner. This is the Catholic and others belief.

I'll keep repeating for we are to understand who tells us what. It is Paul that tells you of the "rapture". You will not find "through" faith until after Damascus Road. You must be able to back up you claims, and you cannot do that by scripture. We are to believe scripture and not what others think.

Of course they continued to preach the kingdom, but they didn't preach the Body of Christ?

Please refer back to your post, for you are the one that said it.

All things are New "today" for we in His Body. The Lamb came for His own but they refused Him then. I believe you must prove otherwise.

Christ Jesus is my Lord, not my King, and we have been saved into His Body. We are in the Bridegroom presently and His wife was not. He went to prepare her a place, and what a place it is. It is known as the Holy city, Jerusalem in whom Israel will dwell.

/quote]Colossians 3:24; Acts 26:18.

Agree

 

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Acts 11
22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

 

I think that is a huge assumption to make on your part that the apostles, other than Paul, never preached salvation by grace through faith. I'm not sure what the dates were that they died, but John lived long enough that there was a generation of Jews that were no longer covered by the blood of animal sacrifices and must come through the blood of Jesus. So you are saying that no one preached to that generation?

Your assumption is hard to buy into.

How can I refer back to something that I don't even know what you are talking about. You are the one that knows what you are talking about and what quote it was so just but the quote up.

This is a funny statement. You are the one that says we are already His bride, but your provide no Scriptural support for the notion and then say I'm the one that must prove otherwise. That's funny. How about you back up your claim with Scripture and then we can go from there. Nobody in their right mind is going to accept what you say just because you say so. Let's deal with Scripture.

Wow...you say Christ is not your King. That is sad. Christ is my Savior, my Lord and my King. Now although He is the Annointed King, whether you want to recognize Him or not, He is not currently an acting ruler, but will one day set up His kingdom and be the Lord of lords and the King of kings!

You say His wife was not, and I am assuming that you are speaking of Israel, but Israel is not the wife of the Lamb, but rather the wife of the Father.

I would disagree slightly with your comments on the New Jerusalem, but that's for another post

Those say absolutely NOTHING about Christians being Christ's inheritance. It talks about Christians are able to receive an inheritance.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

 

I absolutely believe these words. But that's a call to righteous living, discipleship, not a call to eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not about following Jesus, but rather believing in Jesus' death and shed blood as payment for your sins.

Then and only then are you even in a position to follow Christ. Don't get the cart before the horse.

 

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Like I said, an assumption that you have made.

You are assuming that he is telling them to depart to the lake of fire or something like that, in spite of the fact that verse 21 explicitly says that it's concerning the Kingdom and in spite of the fact that he never denies their works and in spite of the fact that 1 Corinthians 12:3 says that no one can call him Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There is no place in here that he explicitly says, "You're going to hell forever!" (said in the best Baptist evangelical voice possible)

He never says any such thing, nor even anything remotely like that.

He says that it's concerning the Kingdom, not salvation, and he says to depart. They're working through the Holy Spirit.

So, you are free to make an assumption, based on something that's not there, and assume that unsaved people can work through the power of the Holy Spirit and call him "Lord".

That's your right.

As for me, I will compare Scripture with Scripture, and build line upon line, and look at what the passage says, and stick with it and not anything else to it.

 

i agree with almost everyone we as christians are not perfect but we should try to be as much possible but all men sin and come short of the glory of god. the best thing for us to do is pray and ask for help from him as much as possible:Fish:

 

To see who these folks are you can look at the parable of the wedding feast. These will be the guest that isn't arrayed in the proper clothing. They will be removed (depart) into outer darkness.

The reason they will be cast into outer darkness is not because they are unsaved, but because they have been found without proper wedding attire.

The proper wedding attire is white raiment, which is the righteous acts of the saints. So you are in charge of making sure you have the proper wedding attire. If you have works that after trial by fire stand the test then you will have the proper attire to wear to the wedding.

If your works burn, becuase they are works of iniquity then you will not have the proper attire.
But only Christians are in view. By the way I include myself in the "you," because we can have faith, but if the works don't follow that faith alone will not save us on that day, as per James.

May we be found faithful, worthy overcomers on that day by the grace of God, the strength of Jesus Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit.

 

He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity... I never knew you.

Seems pretty final to me.

There is only one of two places man will go after judgment. either heaven... or hell.

If they are not part of the kingdom of heaven, they only have one place reserved for them.

The fact that the Bible says all liars will go to that lake of fire tells where the ones in Matthew 7:21 - 23 will go. They lied to Christ saying they had cast out devils. Since satan cannot cast out satan, they were lying even before the throne.

It is obvious when Christ said, 'Depart from me,' He was sending them to the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

The white raiment is the clothing of righteousness we receive upon faith in Christ. This is the only way we can be clothed properly.

How could Christ throw a believer, indwelt by the HS, into "outer darkness?!" Also, as for Matt. 7, Christ could not say to a believer that he never knew them.

 

AMEN Brother, you tell that word!

EDIT:

I don't believe everyone in the Church (by in the Church I mean those that show up on Sunday, not the body of Christ) is saved or going to heaven. Just as there will be two in the field, one will go and the other will not. There will be two on the pew, one will go and the other will not. There will be two in the pulpit, one will go and the other will not. When the son of man comes in his glory and begins to separate to his left and right, we will see some surprises...

 

If you stick to what the passage says, these men did prophesy in his name. They may have healed the sick and raised the dead, in his name. However, they forgot the first step. They forgot to accept Christ and their LORD and personal savior.

There are many that go out witnessing the good news of Jesus, but faild to first assure their own salvation. When the Bible says to believe or know Jesus, it doesn't mean to have heard of him and consider it a true story, it means to have a personal relationship with him.