What was/is God doing

[KenH]

And again, I don’t need a lecture in theology from someone so ignorant of scripture they believe many are saved having never heard the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

And again, I don’t need a lecture in theology from someone so ignorant of scripture they believe many are saved having never heard the gospel.

To be fair, infants that die have 'never heard the gospel', the mentally challenged cannot understand it, and I assume you all make allowances for them? Or not? No mercy or allowances for those who have never heard?

 

[canadyjd]

To be fair, infants that die have 'never heard the gospel', the mentally challenged cannot understand it, and I assume you all make allowances for them? Or not? No mercy or allowances for those who have never heard?

Martin Luther had a great answer for this. Referring to John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb, he surmised that even if infants (I would add mentally challenged folks to this) cannot respond to the gospel in a way that WE can understand, does not mean they cannot respond to God Holy Spirit in a way He understands.

I believe salvation is a work of God from start to finish. The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Who He is as Messiah, God Himself, and what He has done) is declared by scripture to be necessary for salvation.

God desires His chosen to be saved. God has also declared the necessity of the gospel. To all who come into a right relationship with God, the gospel of Jesus Christ will be present and those that are saved will respond with faith in a way God understands.

I do believe all that die in infancy go to heaven, including those conceived but never born. There is very little scripture that speaks to this issue, but it is what I believe.

As for “no mercy or allowances” for those that have never heard we just need to remember that, according to Romans 1, every person has rejected the revelation of God found in creation and stands condemned.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

God desires His chosen to be saved.

'Sozo' [saved] does not mean 'redeemed'. Many if not most evangelicals conflate the two. IMO, heaven will have lots of 'unsaved' people but all will have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and born of His Spirit:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

The gospel has zilch to do with populating heaven above, it's for bringing His lost sheep home into the kingdom here on earth. It's not the means for life and immortality, it's the message. 2 Timothy 1:10

10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

 

[kyredneck]

As for “no mercy or allowances” for those that have never heard we just need to remember that, according to Romans 1, every person has rejected the revelation of God found in creation and stands condemned.

It's a stretch to say this is every person, and it doesn't fit into other scripture.

32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them. Ro 1

 

[canadyjd]

It's a stretch to say this is every person, and it doesn't fit into other scripture…. Ro 1

It certainly “fits” with what Romans 1 states very plainly. All have turn side… none righteous… not even one….. all have rejected the revelation found in creation, rejected God Himself by doing so.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

'Sozo' [saved] does not mean 'redeemed'. Many if not most evangelicals conflate the two. IMO, heaven will have lots of 'unsaved' people but all will have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and born of His Spirit:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

The gospel has zilch to do with populating heaven above, it's for bringing His lost sheep home into the kingdom here on earth. It's not the means for life and immortality, it's the message. 2 Timothy 1:10

10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

Your beliefs seem. Strange to me. “Redeemed” is a term used of purchasing a slave. We are bought with a price. That price is the blood of Jesus.

Hard to image being redeemed, purchased with the blood of Jesus, doesn’t mean we are brought into a right relationship with God by faith (saved)

Hard to imagine heaven will be filled with unsaved people

Do you have any scripture that supports the idea heaven will be filled with unsaved people?

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

It certainly “fits” with what Romans 1 states very plainly. All have turn side… none righteous… not even one….. all have rejected the revelation found in creation, rejected God Himself by doing so.

This is not/ was not 'every person', Acts of the Apostles 28:2 ALONE refutes that:

28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them. Ro 1

God has always had His people among the nations:

Galatians 4:26, Psalms 87, John 10:16, Isaiah 54:1, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

 

[kyredneck]

Do you have any scripture that supports the idea heaven will be filled with unsaved people?

Do you have any scripture that supports your hardline restrictivism? That all who have not heard the gospel are bound for an eternity of torment?

 

[kyredneck]

Hard to imagine heaven will be filled with unsaved people

I didn't say 'filled'. Can you imagine that these lost their eternal salvation and went to hell? Would you consider them 'saved'?

24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 12 Tim 1

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

 

[tyndale1946]

Being, before the foundation of the world it was preordained 1 peter 1:19,20, that, from the foundation of the world rev 13:8, the Christ as of a Lamb without spot and without blemish would be slain, [suffer the death] then God must have planed to create Adam in a manner that would be subject to bringing, the death, the result of, the sin, into the world.

Yes or No?

WHY?

Before the foundation of the world, why would God need sin and death to come into the world?

What is man [singular and the son of man [singular] that thou visited him.

IMHO God was using the flesh and blood man, created in God's image, to deal with something that preexisted the man. From Eps 6:12 Some, spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

I believe, for the purpose of God, Adam was created to being the death through the sin into the world. For the purpose of destroying the devil and his works.

You know we all have our thoughts on here but when it comes right down to it the only one right is God... We are mortal fallible men but scripture gives the answer if you look and if none is given why speculate?... Brother Glen

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[KenH]

To be fair, infants that die have 'never heard the gospel', the mentally challenged cannot understand it, and I assume you all make allowances for them? Or not? No mercy or allowances for those who have never heard?

As the old saying goes, it is "above our paygrade" to attempt to figure out who the elect of God are that He chose and gave to Christ before the world began to be their Surety. The gospel is to be proclaimed indiscriminately to all people. God is the one who will take care of bringing His elect under the hearing of gospel and the Holy Spirit is the one Who will regenerate them.

Those who die in infancy, etc., are in God's hands and He will do with them as He has purposed, just as He does with the rest of us.

 

[Silverhair]

I’ll debate you when you can accurately state the reformed position without regurgitating your false claims.

I consistently pray God Holy Spirit enlighten me to the truth of God’s word.

Since you have repeatedly stated many are saved having never heard the gospel, making a mockery of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, in favor of your man made philosophy,….

…. I suggest you focus your prayers on yourself, asking God for the understanding that will lead to repentance of your false philosophy.

peace to you

What false claims, I just post what reformed calvinist's say. It is your DoG/TULIP which is not biblical. You are the ones that say your saved before you actually believe. Your reformed calvinist position is what you hold to but have you actually looked at the foundation of your view? Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church and it formed the basis of your reformed calvinist view.

Why do you continue to make a mockery of the truth of God, He can save anyone by any means He chooses and you deny this. By your logic none of the OT saints were saved. Get your head out of your philosophical mindset and just trust what the Holy Spirit says.

You are trusting in gnostic philosophy superimposed on scripture

 

[Silverhair]

It seems @canadyjd is not the only one that needs to trust scripture rather than the teachings of man.

 

[canadyjd]

What false claims, I just post what reformed calvinist's say. It is your DoG/TULIP which is not biblical. You are the ones that say your saved before you actually believe. Your reformed calvinist position is what you hold to but have you actually looked at the foundation of your view? Augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church and it formed the basis of your reformed calvinist view.

Why do you continue to make a mockery of the truth of God, He can save anyone by any means He chooses and you deny this. By your logic none of the OT saints were saved. Get your head out of your philosophical mindset and just trust what the Holy Spirit says.

You are trusting in gnostic philosophy superimposed on scripture

Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance of reformed theology and biblical truth in every post. I doubt you even know what “gnostic philosophy” means, much less tie it to reformed theology.

What false claims, you ask? I’ll give you another example, besides your obvious blunder in trying to link gnostic philosophy with reformed theology.

Speaking for myself, I wasn’t saved before I believed. I have told you this on multiple occasions, and yet you continuously make the FALSE CLAIM I believe it. I do not know anyone that is “reformed” that believes it.

Such thinking is NOT part of reformed theology, though you may find small groups of hyper-Calvinists that hold to some form of that belief, it isn’t widespread.

OTOH, you have repeated claimed that many are saved having never heard the gospel, making a mockery of our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross and the continuing work of God Holy Spirit in bringing life to His children.

I don’t need a lecture in theology from someone that demonstrates ignorance of reformed theology otoh and ignorance of scripture truth in the other

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Speaking for myself, I wasn’t saved before I believed. I have told you this on multiple occasions, and yet you continuously make the FALSE CLAIM I believe it. I do not know anyone that is “reformed” that believes it.

Such thinking is NOT part of reformed theology, though you may find small groups of hyper-Calvinists that hold to some form of that belief, it isn’t widespread.

@Silverhair has gommed up the word 'sozo'/'saved' just as you and most other evangelicals have.

Do you consider Schreiner to be hyper? - Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion? - 9Marks : 9Marks

Sproul? - The Immediacy of Regeneration | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that 'saved' means 'saved from hell'.

 

[KenH]

It seems @canadyjd is not the only one that needs to trust scripture rather than the teachings of man.

 

[tyndale1946]

@Silverhair has gommed up the word 'sozo'/'saved' just as you and most other evangelicals have.

Do you consider Schreiner to be hyper? - Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion? - 9Marks : 9Marks

Sproul? - The Immediacy of Regeneration | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that 'saved' means 'saved from hell'.

Saved to what?... Saved from what?... Saved to whom?... Put it in the right context and maybe you'll understand it?... I'm not talking to you redneck... Brother Glen

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance of reformed theology and biblical truth in every post. I doubt you even know what “gnostic philosophy” means, much less tie it to reformed theology.

What false claims, you ask? I’ll give you another example, besides your obvious blunder in trying to link gnostic philosophy with reformed theology.

Speaking for myself, I wasn’t saved before I believed. I have told you this on multiple occasions, and yet you continuously make the FALSE CLAIM I believe it. I do not know anyone that is “reformed” that believes it.

Such thinking is NOT part of reformed theology, though you may find small groups of hyper-Calvinists that hold to some form of that belief, it isn’t widespread.

OTOH, you have repeated claimed that many are saved having never heard the gospel, making a mockery of our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross and the continuing work of God Holy Spirit in bringing life to His children.

I don’t need a lecture in theology from someone that demonstrates ignorance of reformed theology otoh and ignorance of scripture truth in the other

Peace to you

I find it funny that you continue to deny the basis of your theological position. Do some research into the basis of your view.

What points of calvinism do you disagree with? Do you deny the DoG/TULIP why or why not? Does man have an actual free will with which he can evaluate the truths of scripture and the various means that God uses to draw people to him or not?

Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit. Why must He adhere to your theological view? Are people saved through hearing the gospel, of course. But I am not so arrogant as to say that is the only way He can do it.

You have still not answered how those in the OT or in closed nations today were saved. I just trust the God of creation to saved those that call out to Him. Why you as a Christian continue to deny this I do not understand, but you do.

 

[canadyjd]

I didn't say 'filled'. Can you imagine that these lost their eternal salvation and went to hell? Would you consider them 'saved'?

24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 12 Tim 1

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

I would have to look at each passage, in context, before answering.

I do not believe people can “lose” salvation.

Scripture does teach us Christians can grieve God Holy Spirit by what we think, say, do.

I have defined “saved” as being in a right relationship with God.

I believe we are “saved” from sin, death and the wrath of God.

peace to you