What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

The verse I gave with that concernes the Church of Corinth. Are you saying that everyone in that local body (the Church at Corinth) was saved. If so, then please tell me why Paul says:

And to whom was Paul speaking specifically in Chapter 13:

This is first to them that are sinning, and also to all others.

They all say the same thing TO THE PEOPLE OF THE CHURCH. Apparently God knows something your missing James .

 

They key lies in this statement.

 

I agree

 

so..lets take this slow and see where we end up.

Why does God Chasten us?

(this is the last post for a few hours)

 

Yes, both individuals and the Church.

I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.

Now, kindly address post #261

Why does Paul ask ALL of those in the Church at Corinth to examine themselves to see if they are in the Faith?
What would be the point if the church is made up of ONLY believers (granted it would be the most ideal). The spiritual body of Christ is made up of ONLY believers, but the earthly ministry of that body in localized form has the potential of not being only believers because we as men do not know if every person truly IS born-again but take their word for it.

Yet we find also that many false teacher and prophets have crept in awares. Into what? The Church body or local assembly.

 

I forgot this one.

Yes but what you wrote is incorrect though typical.
As far as SCRIPTURE goes, Christ WAS addressing all the Churches (houses) of the day. A Church is a group of people...a local assembly. Yep, that is right.

 

JD

I came across a particular quote from Martin Luther, and I just had to share it you:

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html

I thought that you might enjoy this quote, to add to the variety of Calvin quotes.

 

I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.

Allan,

That is hardly the case for you have only spent most of your time only on one verse as a sidetrack not to address the others.

Remember these?

still nothing....and I have asked many times for you or someone to address them.

Allan, I did not address it for there was no point to be made.

Paul says he is addressing the saints as the readers of the letter. If indeed there were non-believers in that church “house” that is another matter. But the letter was addressed to the saints at Corinth.

Your statement is kinda strange. Either you have never studied the book, or your grasping. I would be more then glad to go into full detail on this book and the way in which you view it, if you would like to open a thread. For now, just read a few chapters 1,3,5…and then jump back to 13 and read the whole chapter. Then maybe you’ll get the idea.

 

Allan...I need some help with this one.

I asked "Why does God Chasten us?"

You said..."Yes, both individuals and the Church."

This is over my head...so help me.

Why does God chasten us?...going by this verse.

 

thanks for another quote from another believer in the doctrines of grace.

{{quote above my james}}

 

something else to ask yourself Allan....

Will non-believers become priest in the Kingdom?

 

Sorry..I know I said I wanted to move back to the subject....but these new ideas keep hitting me.

so anyway. also...being this must be a big point for you. please outline the letter to the Laodiceans.


I think is you do this, you will find your error.

 

Because it's not all about us or our benefit but it's all about God and what pleases Him...

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

Again it's not primarily about the benefit to the human race but God and His glory and honor...

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

HankD​

 

And here is another thing where non-Calvinist puzzle me.

The so labeled quote above is said to be from Martin Luther. We see non-Calvinist pulling this shady tactic all the time. They try to make other Calvinist think that even great Calvinists of the past do not believe as they do today. This would be fine if it were true. But what we see is nothing short of misleading statements and at times lies. What they seem to forget, is that most Calvinist are well read and have study the subject on their own and find their claims full of hot air.

So what is the point? Are non-Calvinist willing to do anything to win their debate, even to the point that you mislead others, and miss-quote others, and think nothing about it? Does the doctrine of "free-will of man" need such help in that you must dip into deceitful tactics such as this?

We have seen many times on this board a quote from John Calvin on John 3:16, by not just one or two non-Calvinist but a good handful and is posted in such a manner as to show readers that even John Calvin did not believe in limited atonement. Yet the truth is, that this well know statement is just 1 line From John Calvin with many parts left out, again with ideas here are to mislead. This is easy to find, if one only read John Calvin and not a web site that hates him.

We see this again in the Luther statement above. I cannot find this statement at all by Luther in the books I have looked through. I did find it on many haters of Calvinist web sites, but this means little when it is not found in the word it is said to come from. Most all of these sites that are setup to bash Calvinist, never say from where this statement came from. However, three sites said it came from Luther’s Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians. This I know is not true for I have read the book. I have a copy in my library. Just to make sure I didn’t over look it, I did a search on a computer software program, and guess what. You got it…its not there.

So...where does this statement come from? Or is this yet another underhanded attempt to mislead?


Please know what you are posting before you take the time to post it. I get the idea from many, that their main goal and mission is to bash the Calvinist at all cost. They setup sites just for this reason, and think nothing of the fact they are misleading and not truthful. I do not understand why any one must run from the truth and feel as if they must take on an despicable ploy of fabrication and odium motives all in the name of their doctrine. Is the truth not good to them? One must wonder.

This coming from a side that suggest that God is only love and truth, but fail to take on such natures of their own.

May God help them.

 

Dear Jauthur001,

I am not a Calvinist. I don't hate you. In fact, I don't hate any Calvinists.

Just thought you would like to know that.

HankD

 

Yep, and when the whole quote of Calvin was given it gave GREATER witness to the fact he held unlimited atonement, and it was something I also thanked you for showing in better detail.

Rather than accuse first, why not simply ask where it came from. I am interested too. Though I have heard that one specifically, I do have Luthers Commentary on Galations which states:
Chapter 1 verse 1

and also in Chapter 2:

I think we will stop there for now. That is only two chapters in Gal. and it is quite evident that Luther holds Christ "died for the sins of the world". And by his own context and usage of the word, yes, it means mankind.

This was obtained from "studylight.org" under commentaries, Martin Luther.
and
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html

It would be better stated that most Calvinists do not actaully READ the actual works of most Calvinists but read other peoples works of those particular men. Thereby being persuaded by opinion rather than fact on some instances- most specifically Unlimited Atonement and it commonly held belief among many notable Reformers.

What is most funny is many of those non-Calvinist websites get their information from 4 point Calvinists. (in many instances)

I agree some are set up for that purpose and some do not say where the statment comes from. I admit I had a couple of my own but your corrected me, and I have adapted it to the specific quote instead of a paraphrase. You were right, and I acknowledged it.

Man, if you have the his commentaries then you have no question that he held to the fact that Christ died for the sins of all men. Galations alone speaks to that!!

That isn't accurately portraying the truth. SOME are but many are not.

I agree and wonder why in the face truth you deny it so vehemently. I am only speaking here of Unlimited Atonement.

Again, it shows your lack of understanding or knowledge of what the Non-Cal believes. Only your personal rendition of it.

 

I did a quick scan and left off the "why". So what I responded to was "does God chasten us?"

He loves us is why He chastens us.

But lest we forget, God so loved the world too. :laugh:
Though He doesn't chasten them, He extends His love toward them via His Son.

 

Me sidetrack? I was responding specifically to your post.:laugh:

But those passages are refering to the appropriation of the atonement, or the application of the atonement upon those who believe.

So Paul was confused when he told specifically those who were in sin and also to rest that they are to examine themselves to see if they are IN the faith, unless they are proven to be not actually be IN the faith. I mean there is no point whatsoever to ask a church full of only the saved to see if they are believers or not.

James, you arrogence is astounding at times but I know it is typical.
I have read it. How many believers do you that are having an open affair with their fathers wife?? How many believers do you know who are questioning the validity of the Pauls apostleship and even his salvation? Do you believe there is such a thing as a carnal Christian? (as in a person who lives their life in a life-style of sin WITHOUT conviction of that/those sins and therefore unrepentant) I don't. And I emphasize life-style and not an act or two of sinfulness. Scripture distinquishes between these. I'm not saying all or most of the Church of Corinth was lost but they did have some in their body of fellowship. Yes the letter was written to the believers in the Church at Corinith but it also deals with those who would be under it's reading that were not saved but in that fellowship body.

 

Allan,

it is clear you still do not understand the meaning of "quote".

In our case it means this....
quote v
1. vti to repeat or copy the exact words spoken or written by somebody

Also called quotation

interj
used to show that the following words are a quotation (often used with “unquote”)

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

I'll address this later to show you again forget.

OK...lets look. The 1st quote was what was said came from Luther. Now you claim you have proof..and your proof will follow in the next quotes

Your quotes of proof that Luther said the above quote....

Is that 1st quote in this quote? nope...I don't see it. So was the 1st post misleading..and this post also misleading? We shall see.. Next quote please.

Is the 1st quote found in this quote? No...not there. Is this misleading? Next please.

is the 1st quote in this quote? No...again..misleading

Now your closing statement...

This shows you at your best. Christ "died for the sins of the world"...all Calvinist agree. John 3:16. But what world means is known my Luther and all calvinist, and not posted in your post. Why? misleading again? Shame shame.

Please notice the 1st quote..said to be from Luther.

1)...this>>>> Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world.

was never said by Luther.

again from the 1st quote..

2) ...this>>>>>Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world.

was never said by Luther.

More misleading?

I think you should stop misleading as well.

read it.

humm

 

This is the only post that can be worked with. Others are sidetracks.

Its getting near the end of pages, so lets lay it all out.

ok..Rev says "who I love, I chasten".
You said above God does not chasten the world.
This would go along with Romans 1....where Paul tells us God "gave them up"
it would also go along with Isa 43: 3 where God said... I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

and it would also go along with Isa 53..where God the Father say toward the Son...I divide him (The Son) [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,

So I agree with you, that God does not chasten all, for He gives up some for the love of others, just as the Bible says.

and..Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." would seem to agree with this notion....right?

********

As to the 7 Churches in REV....they were the elect of God, or the non-believer will be kings and priests in the kingdom.

Allan, the Bible is wrote to Gods people. This is why the non-believer cannot understand it, without Gods help. "If my people, which are called by my name"....is a call for the choosen to get right with God. This does not mean non-believers are not within the church building, for they are. But the letters are addressed to Gods people. Now please note, that Gods people also include the Jews. And no, the jews are not all believers. The Jews were chosen for other reasons, and some are not chosen toward salvation.

In chapter 3..please notice

after they are called down for their lack of works, they are then counseled. Does verse 8 sound like the romans road to salvation? Can you buy salvation? No..you know this. But you can layup white raiment and gold and crowns, with the work you do for the kingdom after salvation.

When we read books that addrees church problems, it is addressed mainly to those in leadership of the church, in order for them to do something about it.
*********

You see...God does love His people.

Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now I know you do not think this applies to all Saints.

But in fact it does. For most people think that the Holy Spirit is given to the whole Church of God, and not just the 11. And this is what is found in the passage just below the above verse.

You see this is the same message through the whole Bible.

One would have to overlook most of the Bible, in order not to believe in limited atonement.

Like this verse..