What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

[Allan]

Allan,



In other words, as far as your logic goes, Christ could have been addressing all the "cat houses" of the day. A cat house has a group of people...a local assembly it is as well. Is this right?

Thanks for the one line above. Kinda little jump back and forth again. Thats ok....stay put and your land in the right place.

The verse I gave with that concernes the Church of Corinth. Are you saying that everyone in that local body (the Church at Corinth) was saved. If so, then please tell me why Paul says:

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? - KJV

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. - NKJV

Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test. - NLT

Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? - NASB

vosmet ipsos temptate si estis in fide ipsi vos probate an non cognoscitis vos ipsos quia Christus Iesus in vobis est nisi forte reprobi estis - Latin Vulgate

Regarding the passage of 2Co 13:5 in the Greek
εαυτους πειραζ ετε ει εστε εν τη πιστει εαυτους δοκιμαζετε η ουκ επιγινωσκετε εαυτους οτι ιησους χριστος εν υμιν εστιν ει μη τι αδοκιμοι εστε - Textus Receptus

And to whom was Paul speaking specifically in Chapter 13:

2Cr 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

This is first to them that are sinning, and also to all others.

They all say the same thing TO THE PEOPLE OF THE CHURCH. Apparently God knows something your missing James .

 

[Jarthur001]

God calls the Church of Laodicea to repent for what it has allowed to happen to itself through indifference and self-exaltation.

They key lies in this statement.

 

[Allan]

They key lies in this statement.

I agree

 

[Jarthur001]

I agree

so..lets take this slow and see where we end up.

Why does God Chasten us?

(this is the last post for a few hours)

 

[Allan]

so..lets take this slow and see where we end up.

Why does God Chasten us?

(this is the last post for a few hours)

Yes, both individuals and the Church.

I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.

Now, kindly address post #261

Why does Paul ask ALL of those in the Church at Corinth to examine themselves to see if they are in the Faith?
What would be the point if the church is made up of ONLY believers (granted it would be the most ideal). The spiritual body of Christ is made up of ONLY believers, but the earthly ministry of that body in localized form has the potential of not being only believers because we as men do not know if every person truly IS born-again but take their word for it.

Yet we find also that many false teacher and prophets have crept in awares. Into what? The Church body or local assembly.

 

[Allan]

In other words, as far as your logic goes, Christ could have been addressing all the "cat houses" of the day. A cat house has a group of people...a local assembly it is as well. Is this right?

I forgot this one.

Yes but what you wrote is incorrect though typical.
As far as SCRIPTURE goes, Christ WAS addressing all the Churches (houses) of the day. A Church is a group of people...a local assembly. Yep, that is right.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JD

I came across a particular quote from Martin Luther, and I just had to share it you:

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html

I thought that you might enjoy this quote, to add to the variety of Calvin quotes.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, both individuals and the Church.

I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.

Now, kindly address post #261

Why does Paul ask ALL of those in the Church at Corinth to examine themselves to see if they are in the Faith?
What would be the point if the church is made up of ONLY believers (granted it would be the most ideal). The spiritual body of Christ is made up of ONLY believers, but the earthly ministry of that body in localized form has the potential of not being only believers because we as men do not know if every person truly IS born-again but take their word for it.

Yet we find also that many false teacher and prophets have crept in awares. Into what? The Church body or local assembly.

I have answered all your posts, James but you keep neglecting either all of mine or most of it.

Allan,

That is hardly the case for you have only spent most of your time only on one verse as a sidetrack not to address the others.

Remember these?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarthur001
Lets try a few verses....they seem to work for me, better then quoting men

Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."


Quote:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

And now look what the Father says to the Son....

Quote:
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


The Latin Vulgate is worded like this..."therefore will I divide to him the prey of many people;''

***********
Some try to rewrite this next verse. Please notice the word "to".

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

And then we have Isaiah 43...you know the chapter you hate the most.

How many times have I asked you to address Chapter 43?

still nothing....and I have asked many times for you or someone to address them.

Now, kindly address post #261

Allan, I did not address it for there was no point to be made.

Paul says he is addressing the saints as the readers of the letter. If indeed there were non-believers in that church “house” that is another matter. But the letter was addressed to the saints at Corinth.

Your statement is kinda strange. Either you have never studied the book, or your grasping. I would be more then glad to go into full detail on this book and the way in which you view it, if you would like to open a thread. For now, just read a few chapters 1,3,5…and then jump back to 13 and read the whole chapter. Then maybe you’ll get the idea.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, both individuals and the Church.

.

Allan...I need some help with this one.

I asked "Why does God Chasten us?"

You said..."Yes, both individuals and the Church."

This is over my head...so help me.

Why does God chasten us?...going by this verse.

 

[Jarthur001]

I came across a particular quote from Martin Luther, and I just had to share it you:

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html

I thought that you might enjoy this quote, to add to the variety of Calvin quotes.

thanks for another quote from another believer in the doctrines of grace.

{{quote above my james}}

 

[Jarthur001]

something else to ask yourself Allan....

Will non-believers become priest in the Kingdom?

 

[Jarthur001]

Sorry..I know I said I wanted to move back to the subject....but these new ideas keep hitting me.

so anyway. also...being this must be a big point for you. please outline the letter to the Laodiceans.


I think is you do this, you will find your error.

 

[HankD]

If you reject the doctrine of Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption and rather believe that Jesus died for the sins of every person, outside of saying, "because the Bible tells me so", I am curious what is the point of believing that?

Because it's not all about us or our benefit but it's all about God and what pleases Him...

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

Unbelievers are not affected in any positive way by Christ's death for sin, only believers, so why is important to interpret the Bible this way?

Again it's not primarily about the benefit to the human race but God and His glory and honor...

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

HankD​

 

[Jarthur001]

I came across a particular quote from Martin Luther, and I just had to share it you:

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html

I thought that you might enjoy this quote, to add to the variety of Calvin quotes.

And here is another thing where non-Calvinist puzzle me.

The so labeled quote above is said to be from Martin Luther. We see non-Calvinist pulling this shady tactic all the time. They try to make other Calvinist think that even great Calvinists of the past do not believe as they do today. This would be fine if it were true. But what we see is nothing short of misleading statements and at times lies. What they seem to forget, is that most Calvinist are well read and have study the subject on their own and find their claims full of hot air.

So what is the point? Are non-Calvinist willing to do anything to win their debate, even to the point that you mislead others, and miss-quote others, and think nothing about it? Does the doctrine of "free-will of man" need such help in that you must dip into deceitful tactics such as this?

We have seen many times on this board a quote from John Calvin on John 3:16, by not just one or two non-Calvinist but a good handful and is posted in such a manner as to show readers that even John Calvin did not believe in limited atonement. Yet the truth is, that this well know statement is just 1 line From John Calvin with many parts left out, again with ideas here are to mislead. This is easy to find, if one only read John Calvin and not a web site that hates him.

We see this again in the Luther statement above. I cannot find this statement at all by Luther in the books I have looked through. I did find it on many haters of Calvinist web sites, but this means little when it is not found in the word it is said to come from. Most all of these sites that are setup to bash Calvinist, never say from where this statement came from. However, three sites said it came from Luther’s Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians. This I know is not true for I have read the book. I have a copy in my library. Just to make sure I didn’t over look it, I did a search on a computer software program, and guess what. You got it…its not there.

So...where does this statement come from? Or is this yet another underhanded attempt to mislead?


Please know what you are posting before you take the time to post it. I get the idea from many, that their main goal and mission is to bash the Calvinist at all cost. They setup sites just for this reason, and think nothing of the fact they are misleading and not truthful. I do not understand why any one must run from the truth and feel as if they must take on an despicable ploy of fabrication and odium motives all in the name of their doctrine. Is the truth not good to them? One must wonder.

This coming from a side that suggest that God is only love and truth, but fail to take on such natures of their own.

May God help them.

 

[HankD]

Dear Jauthur001,

I am not a Calvinist. I don't hate you. In fact, I don't hate any Calvinists.

Just thought you would like to know that.

HankD

 

[Allan]

And here is another thing where non-Calvinist puzzle me.

The so labeled quote above is said to be from Martin Luther. We see non-Calvinist pulling this shady tactic all the time. They try to make other Calvinist think that even great Calvinists of the past do not believe as they do today. This would be fine if it were true. But what we see is nothing short of misleading statements and at times lies. What they seem to forget, is that most Calvinist are well read and have study the subject on their own and find their claims full of hot air.
...snip...
We have seen many times on this board a quote from John Calvin on John 3:16, by not just one or two non-Calvinist but a good handful and is posted in such a manner as to show readers that even John Calvin did not believe in limited atonement. Yet the truth is, that this well know statement is just 1 line From John Calvin with many parts left out, again with ideas here are to mislead. This is easy to find, if one only read John Calvin and not a web site that hates him.

Yep, and when the whole quote of Calvin was given it gave GREATER witness to the fact he held unlimited atonement, and it was something I also thanked you for showing in better detail.

We see this again in the Luther statement above. I cannot find this statement at all by Luther in the books I have looked through.

Rather than accuse first, why not simply ask where it came from. I am interested too. Though I have heard that one specifically, I do have Luthers Commentary on Galations which states:
Chapter 1 verse 1

St. Paul wrote this epistle because, after his departure from the Galatian churches, Jewish-Christian fanatics moved in, who perverted Paul's Gospel of man's free justification by faith in Christ Jesus.

The world bears the Gospel a grudge because the Gospel condemns the religious wisdom of the world. Jealous for its own religious views, the world in turn charges the Gospel with being a subversive and licentious doctrine, offensive to God and man, a doctrine to be persecuted as the worst plague on earth.

As a result we have this paradoxical situation: The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel

Verse 4. Who gave himself for our sins.
As long as a person is in the world he cannot by his own efforts rid himself of sin, because the world is bent upon evil. The people of the world are the slaves of the devil. If we are not in the Kingdom of Christ, it is certain we belong to the kingdom of Satan and we are pressed into his service with every talent we possess.



This sentence also defines our sins as great, so great, in fact, that the whole world could not make amends for a single sin. The greatness of the ransom, Christ, the Son of God, indicates this. The vicious character of sin is brought out by the words "who gave himself for our sins." So vicious is sin that only the sacrifice of Christ could atone for sin. When we reflect that the one little word "sin" embraces the whole kingdom of Satan, and that it includes everything that is horrible, we have reason to tremble. But we are careless. We make light of sin. We think that by some little work or merit we can dismiss sin.

This passage, then, bears out the fact that all men are sold under sin. Sin is an exacting despot who can be vanquished by no created power, but by the sovereign power of Jesus Christ alone.
...snip...
St. Paul also presents a true picture of Christ as the virgin-born Son of God, delivered into death for our sins. To entertain a true conception of Christ is important, for the devil describes Christ as an exacting and cruel judge who condemns and punishes men. Tell him that his definition of Christ is wrong, that Christ has given Himself for our sins, that by His sacrifice He has taken away the sins of the whole world.

and also in Chapter 2:

Verses 4, 5. And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
...snip...
Human reason can think only in terms of the Law. It mumbles: "This I have done, this I have not done." But faith looks to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, given into death for the sins of the whole world. To turn one's eyes away from Jesus means to turn them to the Law.

True faith lays hold of Christ and leans on Him alone. Our opponents cannot understand this. In their blindness they cast away the precious pearl, Christ, and hang onto their stubborn works.
...snip...
We too were willing to make all kinds of concessions to the papists. Yes, we are willing to offer them more than we should. But we will not give up the liberty of conscience which we have in Christ Jesus. We refuse to have our conscience bound by any work or law, so that by doing this or that we should be righteous, or leaving this or that undone we should be damned.

Since our opponents will not let it stand that only faith in Christ justifies, we will not yield to them. On the question of justification we must remain adamant, or else we shall lose the truth of the Gospel. It is a matter of life and death. It involves the death of the Son of God, who died for the sins of the world. If we surrender faith in Christ, as the only thing that can justify us, the death and resurrection of Jesus are without meaning; that Christ is the Savior of the world would be a myth. God would be a liar, because He would not have fulfilled His promises...snip...]
and on verse 16
...snip...
The second part is this. God sent His only-begotten Son into the world that we may live through His merit. He was crucified and killed for us. By sacrificing His Son for us God revealed Himself to us as a merciful Father who donates remission of sins, righteousness, and life everlasting for Christ's sake. God hands out His gifts freely unto all men. That is the praise and glory of His mercy[/B

I think we will stop there for now. That is only two chapters in Gal. and it is quite evident that Luther holds Christ "died for the sins of the world". And by his own context and usage of the word, yes, it means mankind.

This was obtained from "studylight.org" under commentaries, Martin Luther.
and
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html

It would be better stated that most Calvinists do not actaully READ the actual works of most Calvinists but read other peoples works of those particular men. Thereby being persuaded by opinion rather than fact on some instances- most specifically Unlimited Atonement and it commonly held belief among many notable Reformers.

I did find it on many haters of Calvinist web sites, but this means little when it is not found in the word it is said to come from.

What is most funny is many of those non-Calvinist websites get their information from 4 point Calvinists. (in many instances)

Most all of these sites that are setup to bash Calvinist, never say from where this statement came from.

I agree some are set up for that purpose and some do not say where the statment comes from. I admit I had a couple of my own but your corrected me, and I have adapted it to the specific quote instead of a paraphrase. You were right, and I acknowledged it.

However, three sites said it came from Luther’s Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians. This I know is not true for I have read the book. I have a copy in my library. Just to make sure I didn’t over look it, I did a search on a computer software program, and guess what. You got it…its not there.

Man, if you have the his commentaries then you have no question that he held to the fact that Christ died for the sins of all men. Galations alone speaks to that!!

They setup sites just for this reason, and think nothing of the fact they are misleading and not truthful.

That isn't accurately portraying the truth. SOME are but many are not.

I do not understand why any one must run from the truth and feel as if they must take on an despicable ploy of fabrication and odium motives all in the name of their doctrine. Is the truth not good to them? One must wonder.

I agree and wonder why in the face truth you deny it so vehemently. I am only speaking here of Unlimited Atonement.

This coming from a side that suggest that God is only love and truth, but fail to take on such natures of their own.

Again, it shows your lack of understanding or knowledge of what the Non-Cal believes. Only your personal rendition of it.

 

[Allan]

Allan...I need some help with this one.

I asked "Why does God Chasten us?"

You said..."Yes, both individuals and the Church."

This is over my head...so help me.

Why does God chasten us?...going by this verse.

I did a quick scan and left off the "why". So what I responded to was "does God chasten us?"

He loves us is why He chastens us.

But lest we forget, God so loved the world too. :laugh:
Though He doesn't chasten them, He extends His love toward them via His Son.

 

[Allan]

That is hardly the case for you have only spent most of your time only on one verse as a sidetrack not to address the others.

Remember these?



still nothing....and I have asked many times for you or someone to address them.

Me sidetrack? I was responding specifically to your post.:laugh:

But those passages are refering to the appropriation of the atonement, or the application of the atonement upon those who believe.

Allan, I did not address it for there was no point to be made.

Paul says he is addressing the saints as the readers of the letter. If indeed there were non-believers in that church “house” that is another matter. But the letter was addressed to the saints at Corinth.

So Paul was confused when he told specifically those who were in sin and also to rest that they are to examine themselves to see if they are IN the faith, unless they are proven to be not actually be IN the faith. I mean there is no point whatsoever to ask a church full of only the saved to see if they are believers or not.

Your statement is kinda strange. Either you have never studied the book, or your grasping. I would be more then glad to go into full detail on this book and the way in which you view it, if you would like to open a thread. For now, just read a few chapters 1,3,5…and then jump back to 13 and read the whole chapter. Then maybe you’ll get the idea.

James, you arrogence is astounding at times but I know it is typical.
I have read it. How many believers do you that are having an open affair with their fathers wife?? How many believers do you know who are questioning the validity of the Pauls apostleship and even his salvation? Do you believe there is such a thing as a carnal Christian? (as in a person who lives their life in a life-style of sin WITHOUT conviction of that/those sins and therefore unrepentant) I don't. And I emphasize life-style and not an act or two of sinfulness. Scripture distinquishes between these. I'm not saying all or most of the Church of Corinth was lost but they did have some in their body of fellowship. Yes the letter was written to the believers in the Church at Corinith but it also deals with those who would be under it's reading that were not saved but in that fellowship body.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

it is clear you still do not understand the meaning of "quote".

In our case it means this....
quote v
1. vti to repeat or copy the exact words spoken or written by somebody

Also called quotation

interj
used to show that the following words are a quotation (often used with “unquote”)

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

Yep, and when the whole quote of Calvin was given it gave GREATER witness to the fact he held unlimited atonement, and it was something I also thanked you for showing in better detail.

I'll address this later to show you again forget.

Rather than accuse first, why not simply ask where it came from. I am interested too. Though I have heard that one specifically, I do have Luthers Commentary on Galations which states:
Chapter 1 verse 1

OK...lets look. The 1st quote was what was said came from Luther. Now you claim you have proof..and your proof will follow in the next quotes

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

Your quotes of proof that Luther said the above quote....

St. Paul wrote this epistle because, after his departure from the Galatian churches, Jewish-Christian fanatics moved in, who perverted Paul's Gospel of man's free justification by faith in Christ Jesus.

The world bears the Gospel a grudge because the Gospel condemns the religious wisdom of the world. Jealous for its own religious views, the world in turn charges the Gospel with being a subversive and licentious doctrine, offensive to God and man, a doctrine to be persecuted as the worst plague on earth.

As a result we have this paradoxical situation: The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel

Is that 1st quote in this quote? nope...I don't see it. So was the 1st post misleading..and this post also misleading? We shall see.. Next quote please.

Verse 4. Who gave himself for our sins.
As long as a person is in the world he cannot by his own efforts rid himself of sin, because the world is bent upon evil. The people of the world are the slaves of the devil. If we are not in the Kingdom of Christ, it is certain we belong to the kingdom of Satan and we are pressed into his service with every talent we possess.



This sentence also defines our sins as great, so great, in fact, that the whole world could not make amends for a single sin. The greatness of the ransom, Christ, the Son of God, indicates this. The vicious character of sin is brought out by the words "who gave himself for our sins." So vicious is sin that only the sacrifice of Christ could atone for sin. When we reflect that the one little word "sin" embraces the whole kingdom of Satan, and that it includes everything that is horrible, we have reason to tremble. But we are careless. We make light of sin. We think that by some little work or merit we can dismiss sin.

This passage, then, bears out the fact that all men are sold under sin. Sin is an exacting despot who can be vanquished by no created power, but by the sovereign power of Jesus Christ alone.
...snip...
St. Paul also presents a true picture of Christ as the virgin-born Son of God, delivered into death for our sins. To entertain a true conception of Christ is important, for the devil describes Christ as an exacting and cruel judge who condemns and punishes men. Tell him that his definition of Christ is wrong, that Christ has given Himself for our sins, that by His sacrifice He has taken away the sins of the whole world.

Is the 1st quote found in this quote? No...not there. Is this misleading? Next please.

Verses 4, 5. And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
...snip...
Human reason can think only in terms of the Law. It mumbles: "This I have done, this I have not done." But faith looks to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, given into death for the sins of the whole world. To turn one's eyes away from Jesus means to turn them to the Law.

True faith lays hold of Christ and leans on Him alone. Our opponents cannot understand this. In their blindness they cast away the precious pearl, Christ, and hang onto their stubborn works.
...snip...
We too were willing to make all kinds of concessions to the papists. Yes, we are willing to offer them more than we should. But we will not give up the liberty of conscience which we have in Christ Jesus. We refuse to have our conscience bound by any work or law, so that by doing this or that we should be righteous, or leaving this or that undone we should be damned.

Since our opponents will not let it stand that only faith in Christ justifies, we will not yield to them. On the question of justification we must remain adamant, or else we shall lose the truth of the Gospel. It is a matter of life and death. It involves the death of the Son of God, who died for the sins of the world. If we surrender faith in Christ, as the only thing that can justify us, the death and resurrection of Jesus are without meaning; that Christ is the Savior of the world would be a myth. God would be a liar, because He would not have fulfilled His promises...snip...]
and on verse 16
...snip...
The second part is this. God sent His only-begotten Son into the world that we may live through His merit. He was crucified and killed for us. By sacrificing His Son for us God revealed Himself to us as a merciful Father who donates remission of sins, righteousness, and life everlasting for Christ's sake. God hands out His gifts freely unto all men. That is the praise and glory of His mercy[/B

is the 1st quote in this quote? No...again..misleading

Now your closing statement...

I think we will stop there for now. That is only two chapters in Gal. and it is quite evident that Luther holds Christ "died for the sins of the world". And by his own context and usage of the word, yes, it means mankind.

This was obtained from "studylight.org" under commentaries, Martin Luther.
and
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...b/gal-inx.html

It would be better stated that most Calvinists do not actaully READ the actual works of most Calvinists but read other peoples works of those particular men. Thereby being persuaded by opinion rather than fact on some instances- most specifically Unlimited Atonement and it commonly held belief among many notable Reformers.

This shows you at your best. Christ "died for the sins of the world"...all Calvinist agree. John 3:16. But what world means is known my Luther and all calvinist, and not posted in your post. Why? misleading again? Shame shame.

Please notice the 1st quote..said to be from Luther.

1)...this>>>> Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world.

was never said by Luther.

again from the 1st quote..

2) ...this>>>>>Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world.

was never said by Luther.

More misleading?

I think we will stop there for now. That is only two chapters in Gal. and it is quite evident that Luther holds Christ "died for the sins of the world". And by his own context and usage of the word, yes, it means mankind.

I think you should stop misleading as well.

This was obtained from "studylight.org" under commentaries, Martin Luther.

read it.

Again, it shows your lack of understanding or knowledge of what the Non-Cal believes. Only your personal rendition of it.

humm

 

[Jarthur001]

I did a quick scan and left off the "why". So what I responded to was "does God chasten us?"

He loves us is why He chastens us.

But lest we forget, God so loved the world too. :laugh:
Though He doesn't chasten them, He extends His love toward them via His Son.

This is the only post that can be worked with. Others are sidetracks.

Its getting near the end of pages, so lets lay it all out.

ok..Rev says "who I love, I chasten".
You said above God does not chasten the world.
This would go along with Romans 1....where Paul tells us God "gave them up"
it would also go along with Isa 43: 3 where God said... I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

and it would also go along with Isa 53..where God the Father say toward the Son...I divide him (The Son) [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,

So I agree with you, that God does not chasten all, for He gives up some for the love of others, just as the Bible says.

and..Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." would seem to agree with this notion....right?

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As to the 7 Churches in REV....they were the elect of God, or the non-believer will be kings and priests in the kingdom.

4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Allan, the Bible is wrote to Gods people. This is why the non-believer cannot understand it, without Gods help. "If my people, which are called by my name"....is a call for the choosen to get right with God. This does not mean non-believers are not within the church building, for they are. But the letters are addressed to Gods people. Now please note, that Gods people also include the Jews. And no, the jews are not all believers. The Jews were chosen for other reasons, and some are not chosen toward salvation.

In chapter 3..please notice

8 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

after they are called down for their lack of works, they are then counseled. Does verse 8 sound like the romans road to salvation? Can you buy salvation? No..you know this. But you can layup white raiment and gold and crowns, with the work you do for the kingdom after salvation.

When we read books that addrees church problems, it is addressed mainly to those in leadership of the church, in order for them to do something about it.
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You see...God does love His people.

Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now I know you do not think this applies to all Saints.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

But in fact it does. For most people think that the Holy Spirit is given to the whole Church of God, and not just the 11. And this is what is found in the passage just below the above verse.

26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

You see this is the same message through the whole Bible.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

One would have to overlook most of the Bible, in order not to believe in limited atonement.

Like this verse..

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Psa 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.