What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[jne1611]

Neither
He gives the choice and knows what you choose.



I have seen your answers before James.

How is it that you view predestination? or Election. If you were to give a concise view of the doctrines. What would it be?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

was asked...

In the order of Gods work, does God make 1st and then know,
or does God know and then make,
or is this all at the same moment?

Neither
He gives the choice and knows what you choose.


I have seen your answers before James.

"For Thou form my inward parts: Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb.
I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made."
Psalm 139:13-14



God gives life to all. Before God made you to give you anything,
did God foreknow you would be saved and then make you,
or did God make you and then learn you would be saved after He made you,
or did both happen at the same time?


In Christ...James

 

[EdSutton]

I have never read one Calvinist that does not give all Glory to God in the end. The greatness is not in the saved, it is in the Savior!

Uh- isn't there coming a time when everyone, 'Calvinist' or otherwise, is going to give all glory to God?

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phlp. 2:9-11 - NKJV)

even as the multitude of the heavenly host did at the birth of Jesus -

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:
14 “ Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!” (Luke 2:13-14 - NKJV)

Ed

 

[jne1611]

Neither
He gives the choice and knows what you choose.



I have seen your answers before James.

I have asked the question that still has not been answered here. If God loves all men as has been propounded here and there on the Board, And God knows what men will do before he creates them, Then He knows some of those who He loves will reject Christ. He then creates hell based on that knowledge? For these same people who He loves? Purposes to send them a strong delusion that they all might be damned & torment them with fire and brimstone for ever & ever. Did God's love run its course and then stop for them or Does He still love them?


How could anybody read about hell & think that God loves a single soule that goes there? He created that place. People don't jump into the lake of fire at the last judgment. They are cast there. And this is not a demonstration of God's love.

 

[Brother Bob]

jne1611; How is it that you view predestination? or Election. If you were to give a concise view of the doctrines. What would it be?

We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.


Acts, chapter 16

29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts and both spoken by the same Apostle Paul.


Romans, chapter 8

"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


So, according to Paul we must "believe" to be saved and God seeing all things at all times sees us believe, calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies us, which we have not seen as of yet but God has seen for He is from everlasting to everlasting.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

 

[jne1611]

Uh- isn't there coming a time when everyone, 'Calvinist' or otherwise, is going to give all glory to God?



even as the multitude of the heavenly host did at the birth of Jesus -


Ed

You may have come in on the end of the point I was making. He said that the focus of the Calvinist was on the elect or (man centered). I was just saying that the Calvinist is far from glorifying the flesh.

 

[jne1611]

We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.


Acts, chapter 16

29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts and both spoken by the same Apostle Paul.


Romans, chapter 8

"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


So, according to Paul we must "believe" to be saved and God seeing all things at all times sees us believe, calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies us, which we have not seen as of yet but God has seen for He is from everlasting to everlasting.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Do we produce faith or does God give it to us?

 

[Brother Bob]

"For Thou form my inward parts: Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb.
I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made."
Psalm 139:13-14

Are you saying this is all mankind James?

God gives life to all. Before God made you to give you anything,
did God foreknow you would be saved and then make you,
or did God make you and then learn you would be saved after He made you,
or did both happen at the same time?

Foreknowledge is for man James. To God there is no fore or aft but all in all.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have asked the question that still has not been answered here. If God loves all men as has been propounded here and there on the Board, And God knows what men will do before he creates them, Then He knows some of those who He loves will reject Christ. He then creates hell based on that knowledge? For these same people who He loves? Purposes to send them a strong delusion that they all might be damned & torment them with fire and brimstone for ever & ever. Did God's love run its course and then stop for them or Does He still love them?

Because God "foreknows" does not mean he causes it. Apparently you believe in cause and effect but I believe in influence and Decision. I think God's Spirit strives with man and its up to us to choose Him or reject Him. He does not make us do either but does foreknow which one we will do.

 

[Brother Bob]

Do we produce faith or does God give it to us?

God gives us a measure of faith but its up to us to add to it.

2 Peter, chapter 1
"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

What is Charity???

 

[Jarthur001]

Foreknowledge is for man James. To God there is no fore or aft but all in all.

You keep claiming God foreknow, why would you say this if God knows of no "fore" or "after"?

 

[jne1611]

Because God "foreknows" does not mean he causes it. Apparently you believe in cause and effect but I believe in influence and Decision. I think God's Spirit strives with man and its up to us to choose Him or reject Him. He does not make us do either but does foreknow which one we will do.

That still is not a straight answer to the question. I believe the book of Romans chapter 9 shows clearly that all are destined by God & that it is His prerogative to determine our end. There are plenty of Scriptures that show this to be true. To be fair I'll ask the question in a different way. Do you believe God loves those suffering in hell right now? Does Scripture teach that?

 

[jne1611]

God gives us a measure of faith but its up to us to add to it.

2 Peter, chapter 1
"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

What is Charity???

OK. So God foreknew that we would believe, but in turn He had to give us the faith to believe. Sounds like He foreknew what He would do. Not what we would do.

 

[Brother Bob]

You keep claiming God foreknow, why would you say this if God knows of no "fore" or "after"?

Because God can be anywhere. If He wants to work in time He can.

 

[Brother Bob]

That still is not a straight answer to the question. I believe the book of Romans chapter 9 shows clearly that all are destined by God & that it is His prerogative to determine our end. There are plenty of Scriptures that show this to be true. To be fair I'll ask the question in a different way. Do you believe God loves those suffering in hell right now? Does Scripture teach that?

He did love them at one time but now they are among the group that He says "I never knew you".

 

[Brother Bob]

OK. So God foreknew that we would believe, but in turn He had to give us the faith to believe. Sounds like He foreknew what He would do. Not what we would do.

Thats what you say but I say because He foreknew does not mean He caused it.

What is Charity?

 

[jne1611]

He did love them at one time but now they are among the group that He says "I never knew you".

So now He does not love them? Then that means if He eternally foreknew they would not believe. He never loved them. The Scripture you quoted says "never" & that's what it means "never" in time nor eternity.

 

[Jarthur001]

Because God can be anywhere. If He wants to work in time He can.

i agree...

And when God works with man....When He works with what he made...when God works in His creation...with man...all matter of Gods creation.

When He works with anything that time is...and that be all of creation...for all of creation is made of time, space and matter...is He in time of outside of time?

 

[Brother Bob]

So now He does not love them? Then that means if He eternally foreknew they would not believe. He never loved them. The Scripture you quoted says "never" & that's what it means "never" in time nor eternity.

Never knew them as a "believer".

 

[jne1611]

Thats what you say but I say because He foreknew does not mean He caused it.

What is Charity?

You said He gave us the faith. Faith & receiving Christ are the same thing. So that means God did it. Not us. That means He foreknew that He would give us faith to & we would receive Christ by faith. There is no ability in the dead. Resurrection is one sided. The dead are not able to respond to anything until resurrected. God must be all in salvation or there is no salvation.