When are we SAVED?

[Dave G]

Can a dead man hear?

Mankind, rebellious and hardhearted towards God, will never bend our ears to his words, my friend.

It is only through His miraculous power that we are born anew.

 

[Quantrill]

I think you already know where I stand.
But he may not read this for a while, so I thought I'd flag it for him:

@Quantrill :
When are we SAVED?

Your initial salvation begins when you place faith in Jesus Christ. I believe I have made that plain.

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

Your initial salvation begins when you place faith in Jesus Christ. I believe I have made that plain.

You did.

I also disagreed...
and I ask that you reconsider, in the light of election, when the Lord actually made the choice to save a people for Himself out of the mass of sinful men.
Was His decision made before the foundation of the world and carried out in time...
Making salvation before a person exhibited faith;

Or was His decision to save people contingent upon their expression of faith and He actually saved them at that point?

The reason I phrase it this way, is because I see three phases of salvation for His children:

Eternity past -----> God's decision made.
In time ( temporal ). -------> God's decision to notify a person of that salvation in the present by the preaching of the Gospel, and to watch over them and give them His Spirit as the "down-payment" of their being saved.
The Judgment and into Eternity future --------> God's decision from the foundation of the world, when believers were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), now carried through to completion when the Lord Jesus separates His sheep from the goats ( Matthew 25 ), casts the rest into Hell, and ushers in the new Heaven and the new earth.

 

[Quantrill]

You did.

I also disagreed...
and I ask that you reconsider, in the light of election, when the Lord actually made the choice to save a people for Himself out of the mass of sinful men.
Was His decision made before the foundation of the world and carried out in time...
Making salvation before a person exhibited faith;

Or was His decision to save people contingent upon their expression of faith and He actually saved them at that point?

The reason I phrase it this way, is because I see three phases of salvation for His children:

Eternity past -----> God's decision made.
In time ( temporal ). -------> God's decision to notify a person of that salvation in the present by the preaching of the Gospel, and to watch over them and give them His Spirit as the "down-payment" of their being saved.
The Judgment and into Eternity future --------> God's decision from the foundation of the world, when believers were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), now carried through to completion when the Lord Jesus separates His sheep from the goats ( Matthew 25 ), casts the rest into Hell, and ushers in the new Heaven and the new earth.

It doesn't matter that God's plan of salvation is known to Him from beginning to end, even long before He created the Earth.

The terms 'lost' and 'saved' speak to real time experience.

By your interpretation, the believers are never lost. Correct?

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

By your interpretation, the believers are never lost. Correct?

By my understanding, God's children were always God's children.

Christ's sheep always had a shepherd, and there are two groups among men...
Those that are "of" God, and those who are "of" their father the devil.

God is not willing that His beloved ( the "whosoever believeth", from the heart ), perish, but that they all come to repentance.

 

[atpollard]

I have been giving this more thought and offer a hypothetical parable:

A man living in the 19th Century is convicted of a “hanging offense” and sentenced to be hung in 30 days. He is locked in a cell on “death row” with a window overlooking the gallows where he will die.​

After spending a week in prison, the Governor signs his pardon. As the man sits in his cell staring at the gallows and the pardon sits on the Governor’s desk is the man saved from hanging?​

Another week goes by and the pardon arrives on the desk of the Prison Warden. The prisoner learns that he has been pardoned and will not be hung in two more weeks. Is the man saved from his hanging at that moment?​

Another week goes by and the Warden releases the prisoner from jail with a copy of his pardon. The man is now free to go. Is he now saved from his hanging at that moment?​

A week later the man is walking down the street, a free man, when he sees the men that he shared the cell on Death Row with being led to the gallows. As he watches them hung for their crimes he realizes that he would have been hanging there with them except for that pardon. That was the exact moment which the pardon had saved him from.​

When was the prisoner saved from hanging?

****

The letter to Timothy reminded me our salvation is not some metaphysical state of being. We are not merely “enlightened” and renewed by God (although the old man has become a new creation). I was reminded that our sin is real. God’s anger at sin is real. The righteous judgement of a Holy God at the Bema seat is a real judgement to distribute real punishment. We are guilty of committing sins and we have really been saved from a real judgement.

Our pardon has been signed. Our pardon has been delivered. Our chains have been removed and we have been set free. Yet the punishment from which we have been saved is still yet to come.

We were saved. We are saved. We shall be saved.
(Already and not yet.)

 

[Dave G]

We were saved. We are saved. We shall be saved.

That sums it up nicely, I think.

 

[MB]

I would imagine that every Christian would say the source of faith is God.
However, the running argument here is:

When did God give humans faith?

A handful of people argue that God created humans with faith and humans are responsible for either leaving faith dormant or activating faith.

Others state that faith does not exist in a human until God chooses to gift them faith when God makes them alive with Christ.

I hold the latter view. I believe @MB holds the first view.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
MB

 

[MB]

From a closed thread:

(Gal. 3:23) Paul is referencing 'we Jews'. "we were kept under the law'.

(Gal. 3:24) Paul is referencing Jews. "the law was our schoolmaster...that we might be justified by faith"

(Gal. 3:25) Paul is referencing Jews. "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

(Gal. 3:26-29) Paul is referencing Gentiles. "For ye are all the children of god by faith in Christ Jesus"

(Gal. 4:1-2) Paul is referencing both Jew and Gentile. "the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant.

(Gal. 4:3-5) Paul is referencing Jews under the law. "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world."

(Gal. 4:6) Paul is referencing Gentile believers. "because ye are sons".

Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost.

They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.

Concerning 'reconciliation' God reconciled the whole world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19) That doesn't make the whole world saved.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ.

Quantrill ​

I loved this and wanted to respond ... but the thread was closed due to length.

You said:

• "Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost."

It seems to me that it is an assumption on your part (within the context of Galatians 3-4) that the source of the faith is "people exercising faith". An alternate possibility could be "God gives them faith".
So I was wondering, do you have any thoughts to share on the source of faith that marks "salvation"?

Concerning the "when" of SAVED, I wanted to discuss "They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.". I wonder if we are attempting to drag God into TIME, when God exists outside of time. There is a Greek Tense that indicates that a matter is a settled disposition, that even if it has not happened yet, its outcome is absolutely certain. I believe that this is used in the so-called "Golden Chain" of Romans 8:29-30 where actions that were clearly in the past (predestined and called), actions potentially in the present (called and justified) and actions that must be in the future (glorified) are all presented in this "settled certainty" case (translated as past tense in English). I believe this might point to God existing outside of TIME where all events are settled with equal certainty. I believe someone once described it as the "eternal now". So from Man's perspective, we were CHOSEN in the PAST and SAVED in the PRESENT and will be GLORIFIED in the FUTURE, but from God's Eternal Now, we are CHOSEN-SAVED-GLORIFIED in the settled certainty of Romans 8.

You also said:
"I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ."

I agree. Ultimately we are human beings that experience reality from a human perspective. I believe that is why most of scripture speaks to us from the human empirical point of view (speaking of the sky above and the earth below and the waters below the earth.) As human beings we know there was a time when we did not know God, and now we do. So God speaks to us of a distant past when God CHOSE us and a time when we had FAITH to believe in Him. It is something that we can relate to as human beings.

Anyway, you raised some good points that I though were worth discussing as a topic of its own.

When are we SAVED?

We are saved when we believe and not before.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
MB

I saw that coming when he made that comment ... but it wasn’t my place to disagree with him. I suspected someone would.

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[AustinC]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
MB

Thanks for quoting scripture. Are humans created with faith or does God only give faith to those he quickens?

 

[Quantrill]

By my understanding, God's children were always God's children.

Christ's sheep always had a shepherd, and there are two groups among men...
Those that are "of" God, and those who are "of" their father the devil.

God is not willing that His beloved ( the "whosoever believeth", from the heart ), perish, but that they all come to repentance.

But Christ's sheep are lost till they are saved.

Again, with your interpretation the believers are never lost.

Salvation and election are not the same thing. I agree with you concerning those of God and those of the devil. But when those of God are first born into the family of man, they are lost. They are not saved.

Quantrill

 

[Barry Johnson]

Can a dead man hear?

The sick can .
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
mat 9.12
Mark 2.17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[ivdavid]

After spending a week in prison, the Governor signs his pardon

Why did you find it important to distinguish this phase by a week? Is it not to distinguish between the state of being pardoned and not being pardoned - for shouldn't one be in a state of death/condemnation/curse first in order to be quickened/saved/redeemed from it?

Any question involving an instantaneous snapshot of your 'saved' state isn't really helpful - at least not without added qualifiers and nuance, given that it encompasses so much more semantically.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Were the Israelites saved from Egypt in Gen 15:14? If one answers Yes, given that it is something "known of a surety", they'd actually be referring to the certainty of the future event, for neither the Israelites nor the enslaving Egyptians yet exist in time. We'd have to say "they are as good as saved when in comes to the future" or "they received the Promise of salvation that will be fulfilled in the future" or simply as Scriptures say, "they shall/will be saved" from the perspective of Gen 15:14.

Again note the qualifier - saved from Egypt. All Israel was saved from Egypt - but was All Israel saved unto the Promised Land? For not All Israel is the real Israel.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Someone who is termed "saved" can afterward be destroyed - again semantically speaking. So I'd personally prefer sticking to just these line of questions -
1. who are the Children of Promise?
2. what was the Promise?
3. When did God swear in Himself this Promise to them?

 

[Van]

When are individuals "saved?" When God places them spiritually into the body of Christ.

Not in Christ, not saved.

In Christ, saved.

So simple a child could understand it.

 

[37818]

. . . for neither the Israelites nor the enslaving Egyptians yet exist in time.

Well this is a side issue. And based on the 430 years beginning with the promise God made to Abram (Genesis 12:7, Genesis 13:16, Galatians 3:17). And the 400 years began with Egyptian son Ishmael mocking Isaac (Genesis 21:9).

 

[AustinC]

The sick can .
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
mat 9.12
Mark 2.17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Barry, that is not what your reference says.
Dead cannot hear. Dead are dead. That's beyond sick.
Second, God is the physician. Jesus healed whom he chose to heal. Not all were healed, by God's choice.
Third, all people are sinners. Yet not all are chosen, believe and repent.

 

[AustinC]

When are individuals "saved?" When God places them spiritually into the body of Christ.

Not in Christ, not saved.

In Christ, saved.

So simple a child could understand it.

Very good. We agree.

A person does not have faith until God places them into Christ and causes them to believe.

 

[Dave G]

But Christ's sheep are lost till they are saved.

I agree.
As I see it, they are "lost", until He finds them ( Matthew 18:1-14 )...
" For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." ( Matthew 18:11 ).

But, perhaps there's another meaning to the word, "lost" that is not being considered when you think of the term...
"Lost" as in "wayward" ( Matthew 18:11-14, Luke 15:3-32 in the context of the 10 pieces of silver, the 100 sheep and the Prodigal son ), versus "lost" as in "them that perish" ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) and condemned to Hell ( John 17:12, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

Or, to put it another way, the distinction between "saved" and "lost" in the eternal sense, versus "lost" and "found" in the temporal sense.

Again, with your interpretation the believers are never lost.

Within the bounds of the love I see that Jesus has for the "little ones which believe in me" in verse 6 and all the rest of what is stated in this first part of Matthew 18, I clearly see how much the Lord loves His sheep...
Those that are given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37-39, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) and that He would give eternal life to.

It's a particular love for a particular people...
The "whosoever believeth" and put their trust in Him and Him alone.

In addition, I clearly see in John 10:26 that unless a person is one of Christ's sheep to begin with, they will not believe on Him...
Unless on is "of God" in John 8:43-47, they will not believe His words.