When are we SAVED?

[Dave G]

Salvation and election are not the same thing.

Again, I disagree.

To me,
Salvation includes election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification ( Romans 8:28-30 ).
The foreknowing is already done, with all the rest to follow at some point in time.

Therefore, salvation spans eternity past to eternity future...
With God's favor always resting on His elect from the moment that He decided to make them as vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

I agree with you concerning those of God and those of the devil. But when those of God are first born into the family of man, they are lost. They are not saved.

I think we are disagreeing on a very fine distinction...

One that's taken a long time for me to see for myself.
I once saw it as you do, and I now see it more and more, the way I'm expressing.
Because of this,
I propose that we agree to leave this "on the back burner to simmer", and to continue our studies in God's word, shall we?


May He bless you with much knowledge and grace, Quantrill,
and may you always remember that He ever lives to make intercession for us and to deliver us from all our trials and tribulations.

 

[atpollard]

Why did you find it important to distinguish this phase by a week?

I distinguished each phase by a week.

• Week 1 condemned waiting death.
• Week 2 pardoned but unaware of the pardon.
• Week 3 pardoned but still in prison.
• Week 4 pardoned and free.
• Day 30 ... See the punishment they were spared.

So at which week were they “saved”?
At which stage in our human experience of Justification - Sanctification - Judgement - Glorification are we “Saved”?

 

[Dave G]

Barry, that is not what your reference says.
Dead cannot hear. Dead are dead. That's beyond sick.
Second, God is the physician. Jesus healed whom he chose to heal. Not all were healed, by God's choice.
Third, all people are sinners. Yet not all are chosen, believe and repent.

Austin,

I think that perhaps Barry is not seeing the significance of what spiritual deadness is ( to be dead in trespasses and sins, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:4, Ephesians 4:17-19 ),
and that only those who realize that they are "sick" ( sinners in need of a Saviour ) are the ones that the Lord has already made alive ( "quickened", Psalms 80:18, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:45 ), from the dead.

The Pharisees thought that they were saved, because they were doing their level best to obey the Lord through the Law...
Christ told them that they were still in their sins...."dead".
Believers realize that they are sick and in need of a physician because they honestly know that they cannot keep the Law in and of themselves, thus driving them to Christ through the "schoolmaster" ( Galatians 3:23-25 ).

The story of the Pharisee and the publican comes to mind, as I see it.

Conclusion:
Believers are literally life from the dead, spiritually ( Romans 6, Ephesians 2:5 ), as Christ is life from the dead, physically.


The distinction is one of semantics ( the meanings of words and how they apply ), and not one of literality...
which I don't think that many who argue this sort of thing take into account.

 

[atpollard]

When are individuals "saved?" When God places them spiritually into the body of Christ.

When are individuals placed in the body of Christ?

• When they are chosen (before the foundation of the world)?
  
• When they hear the Gospel?
• When they confess?
• When they are baptized (water)?
  
• When they receive the Holy Spirit?
• When they finish the race and are glorified?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, that is not what your reference says.
Dead cannot hear. Dead are dead. That's beyond sick.
Second, God is the physician. Jesus healed whom he chose to heal. Not all were healed, by God's choice.
Third, all people are sinners. Yet not all are chosen, believe and repent.

I.ll go with what Jesus says over calvinism everytime.

 

[AustinC]

When are individuals placed in the body of Christ?

• When they are chosen (before the foundation of the world)?
  
• When they hear the Gospel?
• When they confess?
• When they are baptized (water)?
  
• When they receive the Holy Spirit?
• When they finish the race and are glorified?

Yes [emoji2936][emoji2935]

 

[AustinC]

I.ll go with what Jesus says over calvinism everytime.

So will all of us. However, you have not actually gone with what Jesus said. This is my contention with you.

 

[MB]

Thanks for quoting scripture. Are humans created with faith or does God only give faith to those he quickens?

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Don't worry God will not force you to believe His Word.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

So will all of us. However, you have not actually gone with what Jesus said. This is my contention with you.

Come on . We need to be serious here . We don't need Augustines Calvinism. It doesn't do anything. Other than thwart what would otherwise be a maturing in a person's walk . Its a useless theological system that does nothing in Christianity. There is nothing good that has ever come from it .

 

[Dave G]

When are individuals placed in the body of Christ?

• When they are chosen (before the foundation of the world)?
  
• When they hear the Gospel?
• When they confess?
• When they are baptized (water)?
  
• When they receive the Holy Spirit?
• When they finish the race and are glorified?

Another fine distinction, my friend...

One in which we might not agree on right now, in totality.
I see the placing in the body of Christ as happening at point of belief, but that salvation occurs in eternity past.
However, I'll still go with your summary...
Saved in the past, saved in the present, and saved in the future.

I though that was well-said.

 

[Dave G]

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Don't worry God will not force you to believe His Word.

" Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you:
2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

Even though you are addressing @AustinC , I felt it needful to address your post:

I encourage you to believe every word, MB.
I've also bolded what I see as the context for the "God has dealt to every man the measure of faith" in this passage...

"Every man that is among you".

 

[MB]

So will all of us. However, you have not actually gone with what Jesus said. This is my contention with you.

No you haven't. You claim faith isn't given to you until God regenerates you. Yet you cannot show this in scripture. So you're believing man over God's Word.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

When are individuals placed in the body of Christ?

• When they are chosen (before the foundation of the world)?
  
• When they hear the Gospel?
• When they confess?
• When they are baptized (water)?
  
• When they receive the Holy Spirit?
• When they finish the race and are glorified?

Eph 1.13 is the answer .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Mankind, rebellious and hardhearted towards God, will never bend our ears to his words, my friend.

It is only through His miraculous power that we are born anew.

no scripture says this.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I have been giving this more thought and offer a hypothetical parable:

A man living in the 19th Century is convicted of a “hanging offense” and sentenced to be hung in 30 days. He is locked in a cell on “death row” with a window overlooking the gallows where he will die.​

After spending a week in prison, the Governor signs his pardon. As the man sits in his cell staring at the gallows and the pardon sits on the Governor’s desk is the man saved from hanging?​

Another week goes by and the pardon arrives on the desk of the Prison Warden. The prisoner learns that he has been pardoned and will not be hung in two more weeks. Is the man saved from his hanging at that moment?​

Another week goes by and the Warden releases the prisoner from jail with a copy of his pardon. The man is now free to go. Is he now saved from his hanging at that moment?​

A week later the man is walking down the street, a free man, when he sees the men that he shared the cell on Death Row with being led to the gallows. As he watches them hung for their crimes he realizes that he would have been hanging there with them except for that pardon. That was the exact moment which the pardon had saved him from.​

When was the prisoner saved from hanging?

****

The letter to Timothy reminded me our salvation is not some metaphysical state of being. We are not merely “enlightened” and renewed by God (although the old man has become a new creation). I was reminded that our sin is real. God’s anger at sin is real. The righteous judgement of a Holy God at the Bema seat is a real judgement to distribute real punishment. We are guilty of committing sins and we have really been saved from a real judgement.

Our pardon has been signed. Our pardon has been delivered. Our chains have been removed and we have been set free. Yet the punishment from which we have been saved is still yet to come.

We were saved. We are saved. We shall be saved.
(Already and not yet.)

Your initial salvation begins when you place faith in Jesus Christ. I believe I have made that plain.

Quantrill

initial salvation ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

By my understanding, God's children were always God's children.

Christ's sheep always had a shepherd, and there are two groups among men...
Those that are "of" God, and those who are "of" their father the devil.

God is not willing that His beloved ( the "whosoever believeth", from the heart ), perish, but that they all come to repentance.

Eph 2.11 says otherwise .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[Van]

Very good. We agree.

A person does not have faith until God places them into Christ and causes them to believe.

Well I can agree we agree in part. OTOH, scriptures says we are saved by grace through (or on the basis of) faith, thus we had our faith declared as righteous by God before election.

 

[Van]

When are individuals placed in the body of Christ?

• When they are chosen (before the foundation of the world)?
  
• When they hear the Gospel?
• When they confess?
• When they are baptized (water)?
  
• When they receive the Holy Spirit?
• When they finish the race and are glorified?

Isn't it clear from scripture what the answers are?

When they were chosen before the foundation of the world? Nope, that election was not individual but corporate, because we were once not a [chosen] people. 1 Peter 2:10

When they hear the gospel? Nope, the second and third soils of Matthew 13 heard and understood the gospel, yet were not saved.

When they confess? Nope, the individuals of Matthew 7 proclaimed Christ yet remained unsaved for Christ never knew them.

When they were water baptized? Nope, all that happens is a person gets wet. Now when we were baptized into Christ by One Spirit, that is when we were put into Christ and saved.

When they receive the Holy Spirit. Close but no. After we are made firm in Christ, thus saved, we then are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The time difference could be immeasurably short.

When they finish the race and are glorified? No and no again. Finish the race refers to when we physically die. No one is ever saved because they physically die. And we (those born anew in Christ) have already been glorified. Romans 8:28-29.

 

[MB]

" Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you:
2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

Even though you are addressing @AustinC , I felt it needful to address your post:

I encourage you to believe every word, MB.
I've also bolded what I see as the context for the "God has dealt to every man the measure of faith" in this passage...

"Every man that is among you".

This verse is speaking of faith in God. In order to have faith in God we have tp place our faith in Him. Our faith can be placed in anything we want to believe.
You have presented this verse in error because you fail to understand that Faith is a matter of believing in what we believe in and what we believe does not have to Be God. Some actually believe in them selves. Some believe in other gods.
This is our ability;
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We can believe does not mean we will believe in anything. Forced to believe in God is ridiculous. Rom 12:3 doesn't say that at all.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Don't worry God will not force you to believe His Word.
MB

So, in Romans 12:3, you think "every" means "all humans everywhere." Is that correct? Yes or no will suffice.