When are we SAVED?

[AustinC]

Come on . We need to be serious here . We don't need Augustines Calvinism. It doesn't do anything. Other than thwart what would otherwise be a maturing in a person's walk . Its a useless theological system that does nothing in Christianity. There is nothing good that has ever come from it .

Let's get serious and address scripture. Stop leaning on your crutch of Augustine and Calvin.
My guess is you have never read either person's writings. I have only read a couple quotes.
So, let's seriously address scripture alone. No more falling on your crutch.

 

[MB]

Well I can agree we agree in part. OTOH, scriptures says we are saved by grace through (or on the basis of) faith, thus we had our faith declared as righteous by God before election.

The underlined is false. Scripture does not ever say that. This is what you do, you dream up false theology. Then you say the scripture says these false things.
MB

 

[MB]

So, in Romans 12:3, you think "every" means "all humans everywhere." Is that correct? Yes or no will suffice.

It clearly states "every man" go ahead and see if you can disprove scripture.
MB

 

[AustinC]

No you haven't. You claim faith isn't given to you until God regenerates you. Yet you cannot show this in scripture. So you're believing man over God's Word.
MB

Apparently Dave's quote of 2 Thessalonians 3:2 won't help?

2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 Finally, brothers,pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

Dave has admirably addressed your post of Romans 12:3 and has shown you and Barry your err.

 

[AustinC]

no scripture says this.

Despite the fact that we have provided scripture...sigh...

 

[AustinC]

It clearly states "every man" go ahead and see if you can disprove scripture.
MB

Please answer my question. Why are you afraid to answer it, MB?

So, in Romans 12:3, you think "every" means "all humans everywhere." Is that correct? Yes or no will suffice.

Does Romans 12:3 mean "all humans everywhere"? Yes or no?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Let's get serious and address scripture. Stop leaning on your crutch of Augustine and Calvin.
My guess is you have never read either person's writings. I have only read a couple quotes.
So, let's seriously address scripture alone. No more falling on your crutch.

Scripture alone ?? The Bible gives us the one crucial message on how to appropriate Salvation ,' Believing ' and a system comes along in the forth century and says we can't believe the Gospel. The devil is working all the time to blind their minds and calvinists are helping him .

 

[MB]

Apparently Dave's quote of 2 Thessalonians 3:2 won't help?

2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 Finally, brothers,pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

Dave has admirably addressed your post of Romans 12:3 and has shown you and Barry your err.

Only in your ignorance of what the scripture is talking about. You don't have to convince Barry or me we both know you are Biblically ignorant.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Despite the fact that we have provided scripture...sigh...

No you have to rely on deductive reasoning and Syllogism. Calvinism starts with philosophical questions and finds verses to support it . Once a person starts to view scriptures this way ,there is little chance he can see the bible any other way .

 

[Van]

The underlined is false. Scripture does not ever say that. This is what you do, you dream up false theology. Then you say the scripture says these false things.
MB

Yet another naysayer, but never addressing the scripture that explicitly supports this truth.

We are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. To claim otherwise to make a false claim.

Next, Romans 4:23-24 says (NASB)

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited,
as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,​

Thus the benefit of our faith being credited as righteousness (Romans 4:23-24) is our election on the basis of faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

 

[canadyjd]

You did.

I also disagreed...
and I ask that you reconsider, in the light of election, when the Lord actually made the choice to save a people for Himself out of the mass of sinful men.
Was His decision made before the foundation of the world and carried out in time...
Making salvation before a person exhibited faith;

Or was His decision to save people contingent upon their expression of faith and He actually saved them at that point?

The reason I phrase it this way, is because I see three phases of salvation for His children:

Eternity past -----> God's decision made.
In time ( temporal ). -------> God's decision to notify a person of that salvation in the present by the preaching of the Gospel, and to watch over them and give them His Spirit as the "down-payment" of their being saved.
The Judgment and into Eternity future --------> God's decision from the foundation of the world, when believers were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), now carried through to completion when the Lord Jesus separates His sheep from the goats ( Matthew 25 ), casts the rest into Hell, and ushers in the new Heaven and the new earth.

I think you are tending toward a “hyper” view.

Election is made by God in eternity past. Salvation, certain by God’s decree, takes place in time on the basis of the faith response to Gods intervention.

I have heard others take your view to the next step... claiming people are saved in eternity past and therefore they don’t even have to profess faith in Jesus since they are already saved.

I haven’t seen you express that belief, but I want to ask you if you believe it?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

I have heard others take your view to the next step... claiming people are saved in eternity past and therefore they don’t even have to profess faith in Jesus since they are already saved.

I haven’t seen you express that belief, but I want to ask you if you believe it?

Not in the least.

 

[canadyjd]

Not in the least.

Thanks for making that clear.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Salvation, certain by God’s decree, takes place in time on the basis of the faith response to Gods intervention.

That's where I disagree after much study.

What I see, is that not only does salvation take place in eternity past, but God does not save on the basis of faith...
He saves on the basis of election,
granting the new birth to us as sinful men and we then believe on Him by faith.

Faith is not the basis, but rather the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of salvation and His work in us by the Spirit.
It is yet another gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given to His elect by the Lord, which they then use to do many things.

 

[Alan Gross]

Then they are tares, are they not?

TO START WITH.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yet another naysayer, but never addressing the scripture that explicitly supports this truth.

We are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. To claim otherwise to make a false claim.

Next, Romans 4:23-24 says (NASB)

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited,
as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,​

Thus the benefit of our faith being credited as righteousness (Romans 4:23-24) is our election on the basis of faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Syllogism at its finest.

 

[Quantrill]

I agree.
As I see it, they are "lost", until He finds them ( Matthew 18:1-14 )...
" For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." ( Matthew 18:11 ).

But, perhaps there's another meaning to the word, "lost" that is not being considered when you think of the term...
"Lost" as in "wayward" ( Matthew 18:11-14, Luke 15:3-32 in the context of the 10 pieces of silver, the 100 sheep and the Prodigal son ), versus "lost" as in "them that perish" ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) and condemned to Hell ( John 17:12, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

Or, to put it another way, the distinction between "saved" and "lost" in the eternal sense, versus "lost" and "found" in the temporal sense.

Within the bounds of the love I see that Jesus has for the "little ones which believe in me" in verse 6 and all the rest of what is stated in this first part of Matthew 18, I clearly see how much the Lord loves His sheep...
Those that are given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37-39, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) and that He would give eternal life to.

It's a particular love for a particular people...
The "whosoever believeth" and put their trust in Him and Him alone.

In addition, I clearly see in John 10:26 that unless a person is one of Christ's sheep to begin with, they will not believe on Him...
Unless on is "of God" in John 8:43-47, they will not believe His words.

Yes, I think I see what you are saying.

Consider this. We know that God and Christ know who are His sheep. Yes, I believe when one is born into this earthly life, they are already either one of God's sheep or not. God knows who they are.

When they, God's sheep, are born into this earthly fallen life, they are 'lost'. Why are they lost? Because they belong to God, but at present are 'lost' to Him being born of Adam with a sinful nature. Thus when they are found, and express faith in Christ, then their salvation begins.

Those who are not of God, not God's sheep, when they are born, they are not 'lost'. Why? Because they never were God's in the first place. To be 'lost' speaks to previous ownership. They never were a possession of God. They are at home in this world.

So, only those who are of God, are the lost sheep. And as you pointed out, Jesus came to save that which was lost. Not that which wasn't lost.

Quantrill

 

[MB]

Yet another naysayer, but never addressing the scripture that explicitly supports this truth.

We are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. To claim otherwise to make a false claim.

Next, Romans 4:23-24 says (NASB)

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited,
as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,​

Thus the benefit of our faith being credited as righteousness (Romans 4:23-24) is our election on the basis of faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Romans 4:23-24 Says nothing about being elect. 2Thess 2"13 . You fali to understand the difference between and being elect and chosen. The elect are always Jews always have been Jews and you have nothing that proves differently. Of course our Lord does choose us after we have believed.
MB

 

[Quantrill]

Again, I disagree.

To me,
Salvation includes election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification ( Romans 8:28-30 ).
The foreknowing is already done, with all the rest to follow at some point in time.

Therefore, salvation spans eternity past to eternity future...
With God's favor always resting on His elect from the moment that He decided to make them as vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

I think we are disagreeing on a very fine distinction...

One that's taken a long time for me to see for myself.
I once saw it as you do, and I now see it more and more, the way I'm expressing.
Because of this,
I propose that we agree to leave this "on the back burner to simmer", and to continue our studies in God's word, shall we?


May He bless you with much knowledge and grace, Quantrill,
and may you always remember that He ever lives to make intercession for us and to deliver us from all our trials and tribulations.

Consider my post #(77).

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

Scripture alone ?? The Bible gives us the one crucial message on how to appropriate Salvation ,' Believing ' and a system comes along in the forth century and says we can't believe the Gospel. The devil is working all the time to blind their minds and calvinists are helping him .

We preach to all, telling them to believe and repent as stated in scripture. We know that those whom the Father has given will believe, as stated in the scripture.

Where do you disagree with the above truth?