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When are we SAVED?

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Derf B

Active Member
atpollard said:
[Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved[masculine] through faith[feminine] ; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift[neuter] of God;

“gift” must match the gender of the thing that is being given in Greek grammar. “saved” is masculine and “faith” is feminine so neither one can be the “gift”. “saved through faith” combined is both masculine and feminine and would match a neuter “gift”.

I am FAR from an expert on this, but that is my best understanding of how this verse works. So this verse could honestly be interpreted as “God gives you faith that saves you because of His grace” or OT could honestly be interpreted as “God gives you the gift of salvation through your faith, because of His grace”.

It cannot be interpreted that God gives you the gift of salvation, and faith just happens to be how God does it. It also cannot be interpreted that God gives you faith and that allows you to save yourself. Neither “saved” nor “faith” alone can be the “gift”.

I believe that the next verse and the earlier part about “while we were yet dead ...” suggests that the whole thing “grace, saved and faith” are the “gift” from God ... so that no one has anything to boast about except God.

Sorry, but I stand by my position that there are no “slam-dunk” victories to be had in a 500 year old debate, or we would not still be debating it.
Click to expand...

There is a slam dunk victory, but neither side will allow it. That’s why the fight goes on.


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A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
MB said:
I didn't know that this is your favorite verse. No thanks I'm not even tempted by your false doctrines.
MB
Click to expand...
I didn't interpret it, and you claim you never interpret, so...how could you know what it's talking about?
Unless, of course, you do interpret verses. If you do interpret verses, then you did not speak truthfully in your earlier post.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
There is a slam dunk victory, but neither side will allow it. That’s why the fight goes on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
As someone who converted to Christianity from atheism, NOTHING mattered more to me than “the Truth”. The Roam Catholic Church that convinced me that Jesus existed failed the test of truth when there Catechism was held up to Scripture and history. I was more than happy to believe Wesleyan Arminianism taught by the Church of God of Anderson Indiana except their beliefs could not be reconciled with certain scripture verses and my own empirical experiences. So having studied both sides as a matter of life and death importance, I am very skeptical of your claim of the apparent contradictions being easily resolved with a little honest discussion.

I suspect you really mean that things would be so much easier if everyone just accepted YOU as pope and then your opinion would be the “correct” one.

However, I am willing to give it a try.
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
atpollard said:
From a closed thread:

(Gal. 3:23) Paul is referencing 'we Jews'. "we were kept under the law'.

(Gal. 3:24) Paul is referencing Jews. "the law was our schoolmaster...that we might be justified by faith"

(Gal. 3:25) Paul is referencing Jews. "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

(Gal. 3:26-29) Paul is referencing Gentiles. "For ye are all the children of god by faith in Christ Jesus"

(Gal. 4:1-2) Paul is referencing both Jew and Gentile. "the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant.

(Gal. 4:3-5) Paul is referencing Jews under the law. "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world."

(Gal. 4:6) Paul is referencing Gentile believers. "because ye are sons".

Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost.

They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.

Concerning 'reconciliation' God reconciled the whole world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19) That doesn't make the whole world saved.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ.

Quantrill ​

I loved this and wanted to respond ... but the thread was closed due to length.

You said:
  • "Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost."
It seems to me that it is an assumption on your part (within the context of Galatians 3-4) that the source of the faith is "people exercising faith". An alternate possibility could be "God gives them faith".
So I was wondering, do you have any thoughts to share on the source of faith that marks "salvation"?

Concerning the "when" of SAVED, I wanted to discuss "They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.". I wonder if we are attempting to drag God into TIME, when God exists outside of time. There is a Greek Tense that indicates that a matter is a settled disposition, that even if it has not happened yet, its outcome is absolutely certain. I believe that this is used in the so-called "Golden Chain" of Romans 8:29-30 where actions that were clearly in the past (predestined and called), actions potentially in the present (called and justified) and actions that must be in the future (glorified) are all presented in this "settled certainty" case (translated as past tense in English). I believe this might point to God existing outside of TIME where all events are settled with equal certainty. I believe someone once described it as the "eternal now". So from Man's perspective, we were CHOSEN in the PAST and SAVED in the PRESENT and will be GLORIFIED in the FUTURE, but from God's Eternal Now, we are CHOSEN-SAVED-GLORIFIED in the settled certainty of Romans 8.

You also said:
"I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ."

I agree. Ultimately we are human beings that experience reality from a human perspective. I believe that is why most of scripture speaks to us from the human empirical point of view (speaking of the sky above and the earth below and the waters below the earth.) As human beings we know there was a time when we did not know God, and now we do. So God speaks to us of a distant past when God CHOSE us and a time when we had FAITH to believe in Him. It is something that we can relate to as human beings.

Anyway, you raised some good points that I though were worth discussing as a topic of its own.

When are we SAVED?
Click to expand...

We are saved
1. When Jesus died in our place
2. When we believe
3. When we are raised from the dead
4. When we enter into His kingdom

#1 all humanity is saved by the death of Jesus, you can tell, because all will be raised from the dead. This is salvation from the first death. But it isn’t realized until the resurrection happens. Which is #3.
John 5:28-29 (KJV) 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
#2 believers are saved when they believe, not from the first death, but from the second death, but it isn’t realized until after the resurrection, which is #4.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Romans 4:17 (KJV) God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


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D

Derf B

Active Member
atpollard said:
As someone who converted to Christianity from atheism, NOTHING mattered more to me than “the Truth”. The Roam Catholic Church that convinced me that Jesus existed failed the test of truth when there Catechism was held up to Scripture and history. I was more than happy to believe Wesleyan Arminianism taught by the Church of God of Anderson Indiana except their beliefs could not be reconciled with certain scripture verses and my own empirical experiences. So having studied both sides as a matter of life and death importance, I am very skeptical of your claim of the apparent contradictions being easily resolved with a little honest discussion.

I suspect you really mean that things would be so much easier if everyone just accepted YOU as pope and then your opinion would be the “correct” one.

However, I am willing to give it a try.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I’ve never had anyone offer to accept me as pope before. I’m afraid I need to refuse, because if I were, you shouldn’t listen to me.
Matt 23:9


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P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
From a closed thread:

(Gal. 3:23) Paul is referencing 'we Jews'. "we were kept under the law'.

(Gal. 3:24) Paul is referencing Jews. "the law was our schoolmaster...that we might be justified by faith"

(Gal. 3:25) Paul is referencing Jews. "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

(Gal. 3:26-29) Paul is referencing Gentiles. "For ye are all the children of god by faith in Christ Jesus"

(Gal. 4:1-2) Paul is referencing both Jew and Gentile. "the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant.

(Gal. 4:3-5) Paul is referencing Jews under the law. "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world."

(Gal. 4:6) Paul is referencing Gentile believers. "because ye are sons".

Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost.

They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.

Concerning 'reconciliation' God reconciled the whole world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19) That doesn't make the whole world saved.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ.

Quantrill ​

I loved this and wanted to respond ... but the thread was closed due to length.

You said:
  • "Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost."
It seems to me that it is an assumption on your part (within the context of Galatians 3-4) that the source of the faith is "people exercising faith". An alternate possibility could be "God gives them faith".
So I was wondering, do you have any thoughts to share on the source of faith that marks "salvation"?

Concerning the "when" of SAVED, I wanted to discuss "They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.". I wonder if we are attempting to drag God into TIME, when God exists outside of time. There is a Greek Tense that indicates that a matter is a settled disposition, that even if it has not happened yet, its outcome is absolutely certain. I believe that this is used in the so-called "Golden Chain" of Romans 8:29-30 where actions that were clearly in the past (predestined and called), actions potentially in the present (called and justified) and actions that must be in the future (glorified) are all presented in this "settled certainty" case (translated as past tense in English). I believe this might point to God existing outside of TIME where all events are settled with equal certainty. I believe someone once described it as the "eternal now". So from Man's perspective, we were CHOSEN in the PAST and SAVED in the PRESENT and will be GLORIFIED in the FUTURE, but from God's Eternal Now, we are CHOSEN-SAVED-GLORIFIED in the settled certainty of Romans 8.

You also said:
"I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ."

I agree. Ultimately we are human beings that experience reality from a human perspective. I believe that is why most of scripture speaks to us from the human empirical point of view (speaking of the sky above and the earth below and the waters below the earth.) As human beings we know there was a time when we did not know God, and now we do. So God speaks to us of a distant past when God CHOSE us and a time when we had FAITH to believe in Him. It is something that we can relate to as human beings.

Anyway, you raised some good points that I though were worth discussing as a topic of its own.

When are we SAVED?
Click to expand...
Everybody who has ever lived need to be redeemed from being under law, thou shall not eat of it.

The Son died for the sin of the world. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Father raised him from the dead and gave him glory. 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
That allowed for the Holy Spirit to be available to be given to those in the flesh. John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
It will be that Spirit that will ultimately bring about the end of your salvation. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Now what is the plan of how that is applied?

Acts 2:38 For the promise (of the Spirit V 38) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. The us of Acts 15:8 “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

What about the them of that verse?
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Now in my humble opinion the them and us are the same as spoken of is James 1:18,1 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

There change relative to Romans 8:11 Takes place at 1 Cor 15:50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,< even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (into the kingdom of God)

What about the rest of the house of the Judah and the house of Israel and the residue of mankind?
After the taking out a people for his name?

Why did Jesus stand up and say what he did in John 7:37,38 relative to the Holy Spirit which was not because he was not yet glorified? on the last day that great of the feast. What about the seven days that preceded that great day?

Acts 15:16 After this (After taking out a people for my name, the kind of first fruit of his creatures) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: What feast was Jesus speaking on?

Why

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

V 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
 
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