When Churchianity fails you . . .

[Seeker of the Source]

My core belief system, that is unfortunately overlooked by mainline traditional Christianity, is that God has intended Mankind to cast aside self, to set aside independence, and to absolutely submit to the Creator God of this universe. It is not, nor never will be some religious system's job to "fix" anyone. Religion systems are Mankind's independence asserting godliness in spite of God's request that we have no idols. Our churches, our clergy, our religious tradition and its mantra have ALL become our idols. We submit to them instead of the Lord of the Universe. And we wonder why religion fails to really change the world . . . So, it is the "overcomer" that sees this and turns from religious systems of men to go out into the wilderness to find The Christ, just as Abraham left his father's idols to meet YHWH in the great unknown.

Many Christians, (those seeking the depths of God), will experience a dark horror of the soul, a night, a desert, a wilderness, a crisis wherein they seem to lose their way, heaven is silent and peace is gone. An overcomer will definitely pass through this forsaken time but on the other side is an inner strength after the test.

After many years of striving to be holy, an honest person will have to acknowledge as the scriptures teach -- we are not able to reach any place of self-made holiness nor will the God of all Holiness accept what we achieve outside of His offer of holiness through Christ. Anyone who approaches the Holy of Holies without the Spirit of God's grace transforming them, merely deceives themselves with nothing but "works of the flesh". It is also called self-righteousness, again fostered by religion itself.

Religious leaders and their Godless ideas have given us such savage madness as the Catholic Church's Crusades and the Islamic holy war or Jihad. These are prime examples of how the Adversary, Satan or Eblis use Mankind's religions to maim, kill, lie and destroy. Such is much of religious dogma. It is noise that masks the truth of God and thus leads one into a confusing darkness of lies.

God has sought throughout history for a Bride from Mankind itself to be intimately joined in spirit with Christ. This Bride is not the ekklesia or Christ's Church as traditional mainline Christainity teaches. The Bride is composed of the overcomers, those who refuse the bogus ideas of churchianity and religiosity. In the book of the Revelation we find the overcomers and the Bride who has made herself ready for Christ. This is a great mystery to most.

And where do these odd ideas arise from? Read on . . .

About 12 years ago I compiled a collection of interesting biblical articles. I just rediscovered them recently. Anyway, I have uploaded them to a file sharing site. Feel free to download them and read them. They are guaranteed virus-free pdf and doc files. Yes, a few of them are my own writings from many years ago.

They may help with these "stay at home" mandated days we face. They are unique, thought provoking and some quite old.

Here's the link:MediaFire

Enjoy your biblical worldview being shaken.

More on this subject here: https://www.amazon.com/Generic-Christian-Musings-John-Patterson/dp/B084DGMCZF/

And yes, I was raised a Baptist. I raised my kids in a seminary town and attended a Baptist church for 14 years and sang in the choir as well. I refused being a deacon. And then His Spirit called me "out".

 

[SGO]

Would you mind posting a few paragraphs of your work here?
Thank you.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

From "Authority Awareness:

What is the mind of Christ that as believers we have? How do we walk in this mind, which is Christ in us? How does the Spirit guide us? I believe part of this "mind" or "Spirit-attitude" for Christ while on the Earth as a man was his ability to recognize an unseen Authority enabling him, guiding him, and moving him day by day, moment to moment. The authority of God the Father evidenced through the Spirit, in every situation, freed Jesus to live unencumbered by fear or worry. Man-tainted laws, regulations, rules, traditions, cultural taboos, religious rulers, political powers and even ancient evil spiritual principalities could not shake Jesus from hearing, obeying, and remaining in the Authority of the Father's will extended to His beloved Son.

I believe, as Christ walked in this mighty freeing awareness, we too can discover this same freedom of boldness, humility, insight, wisdom, and obedience flowing from the living authority of the Father in heaven. Not only is the Father's will there for us to walk in, but also the mind of Christ is ready to guide us into ALL TRUTH.

Every need, every situation, every moment, every decision we face can be actively, dynamically engaged within the Authority of the Kingdom of God, within us, and among us! This is a powerful truth!

It can seen in scriptures from Adam, the first of Man, how authority over the Earth was conditionally granted to him to tend, care for, and have an obediently submissive dominion under God’s rule. Adam believing the lie of Satan, chose a “short-cut” to become a grand ruler as “a god”. Gaining the knowledge of good and evil via self-rule, Adam decided to operate outside of God’s rule and thus forfeited his conditional authority. Somehow, Satan had Adam’s forfeited authority “fall” to himself via Adam’s rebellion. The dominion over the Earth fell to the Evil One. Fallen man by fallen man, Satan’s kingdom grew in power. God allowed this . . . for a time.

When Jesus came as the Second Adam, the chance to regain the authority over the Earth became a reality. Jesus’ obedience, unto death, to God’s ultimate rule and heaven-based authority, would be Man’s chance to take back a forfeited authority that Satan was abusing generation unto generation. One may read of Satan coming to Jesus and offering Him the “short-cut” all over again to gain the world’s kingdoms. Satan tempted Jesus to walk in self-rule, to take independent action, and use the quick path to being a King with authority. Jesus resisted, submitting instead to the will, the rule, and the ultimate authority of His Father in Heaven. Where the first Adam fell, Jesus the Second Adam refused the Lie of the Evil One. In Jesus’ death and resurrection, he won back the lost authority over the Earth. The conditional test of rightful reign was over. Jesus’ race was finished victoriously!

And . . .

From "Dangerous Mind"

This means very plainly that our own minds, every one of our thoughts, what we learned from the pulpit, from the seminary professor, from bible studies, from our parents, from close friends, on the web, in books, at conferences, in counseling sessions, from visions, dreams and the who she-bang -- all of it -- all of it -- yes, even that idea -- that one too -- even what granpa says -- ALL of it must be in submission to one thing. What is that? How is this done?

God's Spirit gives us understanding, leading us into ALL truth. The word even says, we need not have anyone, any man/woman teach us. As He will open up truth from scripture, by revelation via the Living Word of Christ in us, we can come into an obedience to Christ, to His Spirit and THEN the knowledge of God is given. As we read, the word and rightly approach it via the supernatural wisdom of God's Spirit, then prayerfully and humbly before Him, we find the letters, the words come alive somehow. We are washed in the word, freed up from legalistic bondage, delivered from the fear of what others think.

If we approach the word with a legalistic mind, we find a legalistic God giving us rules to live by. If we approach the word with something to prove, we can usually prove anything we want to prove. It is a form of lawlessness approaching the scriptures this way. The letter of the Word used without the Spirit brings death, literally seen in our world and unseen in our souls. The word used incorrectly can bring death to our lives. Abuse of the word can drive men and women into madness and sorrow upon sorrow.

The word rightly and humbly approached, taught to us personally by the Spirit will change us, bringing His life deeper into us, sanctifying us and teaching us of Christ and the coming kingdom. And yes, the word used by the Spirit points us to a righteous way of death, a way of suffering, a way of obedience that brings into power the very same resurrection life Jesus tapped into when He was here as a man. Jesus asks us to die to ourselves, to enter into a fellowship with Him, a walk that He walked.

We cannot do it by our own fleshly, soulish, and strong-willed intellect. Believe me, I tried and tried, decade after decade, for over thirty years. The Lord finally broke my worship and idolatry of my mind, my intellectual strengths. He laid me low for seven years until I finally understood what Paul said,

"But surely I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all, and count them to be filth, that I may gain Christ;" Phillipians 3:8

We must lay aside ALL we are, ALL we know, ALL we are proud of having attained to, every citadel of dogma, every thought we rest in, lay it ALL down before Christ and count it as filth, that we might gain Him.

Paul was an intellectual, a deeply religious man, devoted, full of pride, full of dedication to a cause, defender of ancient, hallowed religion. But remember this, with all that revered Hebrew religion & the powerfully successful government of Rome, the Law and the Prophets, all the Jewish statutes & of that world's best educated minds -- they reasoned out their best solution before their God and then decided a best course of duty.

AND THEY KILLED THE LORD JESUS!

Paul, (then called Saul), the great champion of intellect and religion, before his conversion, had innocent and Spirit-filled believers in Christ murdered, all in the name of the word, the holy word, the holy letter of the law! Can you see why incorrect use of the word, worship of the mind always brings death? Paul later understood completely and he was moved by the Spirit to call all of it filth, refuse and dung -- when compared to knowing Christ.


So "SGO" ~ I hope that suffices!

 

[SGO]

Thank you.
At first reading it sounds too lofty and too hard for me.
Besides what are you going to do with all those people who are in the church now?
Are you saying God isn't doing anything with them?

 

[Roy]

John, are you unchurched? The posts here are well presented, but I am trying to figure out if you are against church attendance. I can see how members can lose their focus and go whoring after false teachers and prophets, but when a church assembly is run according to biblical precepts, it is effective in expanding Christ's kingdom and becomming salt and light in a land that no longer remembers who it's God is.

My salvation can be attributed to my church upbringing. The conviction which caused me to surrender to Jesus was generated by church teachings, and it was during a quiet time at home when I was 15 years old that I accepted Jesus as my saviour.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Thank you.
At first reading it sounds too lofty and too hard for me.
Besides what are you going to do with all those people who are in the church now?
Are you saying God isn't doing anything with them?

I do lean towards "purple prose" -- sorry.

God has not forgotten those saints still in the "system". He has a plan for all of us. He is calling His saints "out" to Him. It just takes longer for some folks than others. It took me 14 years to finally leave even knowing the correct way to gather unto Him. To meet as first century believers did, with ALL members of the body functioning, (not being spectators at a church program being followed), under the sole leadership of the Spirit with Christ as the head, is the real way to worship and how saints are truly built up. There is a much better way than what churchianity has to offer.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

John, are you unchurched? The posts here are well presented, but I am trying to figure out if you are against church attendance. I can see how members can lose their focus and go whoring after false teachers and prophets, but when a church assembly is run according to biblical precepts, it is effective in expanding Christ's kingdom and becomming salt and light in a land that no longer remembers who it's God is.

My salvation can be attributed to my church upbringing. The conviction which caused me to surrender to Jesus was generated by church teachings, and it was during a quiet time at home when I was 15 years old that I accepted Jesus as my saviour.

Currently, I gather virtually over a conference call with the other members of a "house church". I am against the whole current system of traditional Christianity with the division of the body of Christ into clergy and laity. That way of doing church is unscriptural and is a left over system from Judaism and Catholicism -- and is not what God wants for His people now.

I grew up in a Baptist church, was saved in my living room reading Matthew when I was 19. I then became a Christian school teacher in a fundamentalist independent Baptist church, (which almost destroyed my faith). Years later I came across the eye-opening teachings of T. Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee, Stephen Kaung: (still alive and teaching though over 100 years old), and Lance Lambert. I also read Viola's Pagan Christianity. And nearly 14 years later, I finally left organized religion for good.

We don't need the juggernaut of organized religion to build Christ's kingdom. He is doing that everyday in spite of organized religion. To have his saints, (ekklesia), properly grow individually and cooperatively, there is a much higher way than being a pew-bound, spectator while the preacher and the ministry team do their thing on Sunday mornings.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Alex2165]

It became quite popular to attend or to offer home made services, or so called "home churches."

I think it is a much better option and solution for those who sick and tired of the same monotony, boredom, dullness, and corruption of traditional churches.

I used to visit one of such "home churches" in NJ and I quite like it. Usually about a dozen people attend regularly and they know one another very well.

It creates homey and private atmosphere there each individual can express his/ her opinion without being shy of the large crowd.

And of course the quality of education in the word of GOD much better in home church than in traditional one. Instead of already prepared sermon in traditional church, a home church can choose their subject of learning and discussion according to necessity of the members of the home church and get much better help according to the Biblical scriptures when the members have personal or some other issues.

In home church everybody involved in reading, learning, and expressing themselves, which cannot be said about traditional church.

I completely support such home churches which is a perfect choice from hypocrisy of traditional church, and I hope that I would find one in my area near my home.

 

[utilyan]

People who START their own churches think they can do a better job than Jesus.

Parents often don't seem perfect for introducing you to Life, Only working with what they have. Its better to leave Parents better off than you found them than to slap their face and run off. I believe the same for those who introduce you to Christ.

I see a lot of babble ABOUT JESUS, Nothing Jesus actually teaches.

 

[Roy]

We don't need the juggernaut of organized religion to build Christ's kingdom. He is doing that everyday in spite of organized religion. To have his saints, (ekklesia), properly grow individually and cooperatively, there is a much higher way than being a pew-bound, spectator while the preacher and the ministry team do their thing on Sunday mornings.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Don't take me as being argumentative if I have questions for you. I can respect your way of worship, and with the possibility of government restrictions, true Bible believing congregrations may in the near future feel forced to scatter and meet in small groups, apart from the watchful eye of "Big Brother Government."
Do you and your constituents practice tithing? If so, how do you handle it, given that you have no "store house." Do you look out for widows, minister to the poor, and visit the sick? These are questions which the rest of us could face in the event that government incursion into our organized institutions drives us out of the brick and mortar edifices and into the street. We gotta have a plan if we want to keep our actions biblical.
Help me out.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

It became quite popular to attend or to offer home made services, or so called "home churches."

I think it is a much better option and solution for those who sick and tired of the same monotony, boredom, dullness, and corruption of traditional churches.

I used to visit one of such "home churches" in NJ and I quite like it. Usually about a dozen people attend regularly and they know one another very well.

It creates homey and private atmosphere there each individual can express his/ her opinion without being shy of the large crowd.

And of course the quality of education in the word of GOD much better in home church than in traditional one. Instead of already prepared sermon in traditional church, a home church can choose their subject of learning and discussion according to necessity of the members of the home church and get much better help according to the Biblical scriptures when the members have personal or some other issues.

In home church everybody involved in reading, learning, and expressing themselves, which cannot be said about traditional church.

I completely support such home churches which is a perfect choice from hypocrisy of traditional church, and I hope that I would find one in my area near my home.

I agree with 99% of what you are saying but the "fad" of home churches decades ago only covers some of the home churches out there. Many have come out do to the Spirit calling them out and not by simply wanting something different than mainline religion. Nearly all the families I gather with knew of the proper way to worship yet still tried organized religion again for some years. Ultimately, they hungered for the wonderful sense of the Lord's presence in "free" worship without any clergy in charge. That's just where I am at today. The Lord gathered us together not some search for an "ideal".

 

[Seeker of the Source]

People who START their own churches think they can do a better job than Jesus.

Parents often don't seem perfect for introducing you to Life, Only working with what they have. Its better to leave Parents better off than you found them than to slap their face and run off. I believe the same for those who introduce you to Christ.

I see a lot of babble ABOUT JESUS, Nothing Jesus actually teaches.

No one I have ever met in free worship settings EVER thought themselves "doing a better job than Jesus" -- whatever that even means.

And what did Jesus teach about today's churchianity?

Consider Hebrews 13:13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

The "camp" is the norm, the traditional way of doing religion, the wilderness outside is dwelling beyond the realms of religion so-called. We who have left are used to and immune to criticisms from within the "camp".

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Don't take me as being argumentative if I have questions for you. I can respect your way of worship, and with the possibility of government restrictions, true Bible believing congregrations may in the near future feel forced to scatter and meet in small groups, apart from the watchful eye of "Big Brother Government."
Do you and your constituents practice tithing? If so, how do you handle it, given that you have no "store house." Do you look out for widows, minister to the poor, and visit the sick? These are questions which the rest of us could face in the event that government incursion into our organized institutions drives us out of the brick and mortar edifices and into the street. We gotta have a plan if we want to keep our actions biblical.
Help me out.

The way we currently meet is very similar to Watchman Nee's "Little Flock" in communist China. They met in homes and did so in spite of persecution. We may see that same persecution in our country one day. (Socialism is on the rise in the US.)

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. Jesus never taught such legalism. In mainline religion we all were groomed to believe tithing was a spiritual duty. The Old Testament was always quoted when the church had a special need. It just wasn't biblical at all. As Christians, we are not to give money to pay clergy staff salaries, building programs, to buy new hymnals, a new organ, a new van, to resurface the parking lot, etc, etc. For many years I did just that, giving thousands of dollars away, thinking I was doing God's will. Never again!

Watch and listen to this:

We are to give liberally as there is a need. I have a widow living with my wife and I. And as I or our gathering see a need, we give. But there is no offering plate passed and no automatic deduction from laity's checking accounts as many churches are doing in this pandemic situation.

My hard and fast answer is: "Be led by the Spirit. He will guide us in what we are to do daily.

 

[Revmitchell]

No one I have ever met in free worship settings EVER thought themselves "doing a better job than Jesus" -- whatever that even means.

And what did Jesus teach about today's churchianity?

Consider Hebrews 13:13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

The "camp" is the norm, the traditional way of doing religion, the wilderness outside is dwelling beyond the realms of religion so-called. We who have left are used to and immune to criticisms from within the "camp".

Bub, you need to go and read that verse in its context. I have no idea where or by whom you were taught your hermeneutics but you need to be further discipled. Everyone has a right to their opinion but not to their own facts. I have been reading this thread since you started it and you have yet to say much of anything coherent or correct. I dont know if you were hurt in a church or have just been mislead but you need to get some assistance in understanding scripture. It cannot be viewed by the lense of your presuppositional agenda.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Bub, you need to go and read that verse in its context. I have no idea where or by whom you were taught your hermeneutics but you need to be further discipled. Everyone has a right to their opinion but not to their own facts. I have been reading this thread since you started it and you have yet to say much of anything coherent or correct. I dont know if you were hurt in a church or have just been mislead but you need to get some assistance in understanding scripture. It cannot be viewed by the lense of your presuppositional agenda.

I have never been to seminary nor taken a hermeneutics course.

I am a disciple of Jesus and not of any man.

I am sorry you don't get what I am talking about. Other readers here clearly do.

The Spirit teaches me about the scripture.

I have no agenda here, just sharing. But you, most clearly have a presuppositional "lens" in place about what I am sharing here.

I have several threads going here. Feel free to sample those as well.

"Bub" signing off . . . (Bub is defined as "an aggressive or rude way of addressing a boy or man.")

 

[Seeker of the Source]

To: Revmitchell

I knew I'd get stuff like this said to me in this thread, as I am indeed poking a stick in the hornet's nest of mainline, traditional religion and her defenders thus come a'flying out.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have never been to seminary nor taken a hermeneutics course.

I am a disciple of Jesus and not of any man.

Uh no, you are a disciple of yourself. That much is plain. You dont know what my motivation is. Your defensiveness is telling.

You can continue to discredit yourself if you like. Those who engage your nonsense only do the same.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Uh no, you are a disciple of yourself. That much is plain. You dont know what my motivation is. Your defensiveness is telling.

You can continue to discredit yourself if you like. Those who engage your nonsense only do the same.

Ouch. Thanks for the Christ-like brotherly comradery here . . .

 

[Alex2165]

The way we currently meet is very similar to Watchman Nee's "Little Flock" in communist China. They met in homes and did so in spite of persecution. We may see that same persecution in our country one day. (Socialism is on the rise in the US.)

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. Jesus never taught such legalism. In mainline religion we all were groomed to believe tithing was a spiritual duty. The Old Testament was always quoted when the church had a special need. It just wasn't biblical at all. As Christians, we are not to give money to pay clergy staff salaries, building programs, to buy new hymnals, a new organ, a new van, to resurface the parking lot, etc, etc. For many years I did just that, giving thousands of dollars away, thinking I was doing God's will. Never again!

Watch and listen to this:

We are to give liberally as there is a need. I have a widow living with my wife and I. And as I or our gathering see a need, we give. But there is no offering plate passed and no automatic deduction from laity's checking accounts as many churches are doing in this pandemic situation.

My hard and fast answer is: "Be led by the Spirit. He will guide us in what we are to do daily.

You wrote:
"The way we currently meet is very similar to Watchman Nee's "Little Flock" in communist China. They met in homes and did so in spite of persecution. We may see that same persecution in our country one day. (Socialism is on the rise in the US.)"

I completely agree with you that communism and socialism are dictatorial systems, and I know it very well because I was born in it. When I was about 25 years old, my parents and I left Moscow (Soviet Union) and immigrated to US. So I know a lot about communist-socialist system, and quite surprise that many people who talking about these systems practically knows nothing about them and only repeating whatever they heard from TV, radio, or read about it.

Communism basically is complete utopia, just like ideals of liberty, equality, and freedom, which are never existed before in the history of humankind and never will be, because for human beings these ideals is impossible to fulfill, implement, and to achieve, until our King Jesus Christ will rule the Earth.

All regimes and so called "administrations" and all the governments are totalitarian and tyrannical in their nature in one way or another. If we compare Chinese communist party that is not even close to ideals of communism, to which everyone on the west points it out, and compare this Chinese "communism" with the tyrannical state of Saudi Arabia for example, the Chinese communist will look like "angels" compare to Saudis who will not even allow to bring a Bible on their territory, not mentioning to tolerate any Christians in their midst.

Even in Stalinist Soviet Union (1924-1953) during worst purges' years (1933-1938) some churches were spare from destruction and many of them had been fully functional. So my point is that the communist and socialist are not completely evil as many may think.

I was born in 1954, one year after Stalin's death, and live under socialist regime until I was 25. And I can honestly declare that there is no perfect system or society in the world ever existed, and never will be. There is no society or country in the world that would not oppress and subdue to its will and domination their own subjects. But in one sense or another one system can have a certain advantage over another or disadvantage in something.

Is it possible to describe socialism in few words? I think it is possible. Despite the fact that socialism is totalitarian system (just like any other system in the world including capitalism) it gave to its people the most essential human rights as:

Right for affordable shelter. In the USSR all its population paid only utilities bill in their apartments (government apartment, one, two, and three bedrooms, were free for all), approximately between 10 and 15 percent from the total monthly income, and for electricity only. People also able to buy themselves apartment and also able to sell it if they wanted. That was the case with my oldest brother, who bought for himself and for his wife brand new apartment in Moscow.

Right for free education. All schools in USSR were free of charge. Colleges and Universities and other high education facilities, all free of charge. Only books, pencils, pens, paper, and other things needed for study were responsibility of the students.

Right for health care. Health Care was free for all, no insurance of any kind was needed, everybody was insured by the government. No matter how difficult and pricey operation may been, no one received any bills, not a penny was charged, and full recovery was done in the hospital, no one was discharged prematurely. I personally knew some people who spent in the hospital over a year until they completely recovered. And their leave of absence was completely covered by the employer.

Right to be free of taxes. Soviet Union was tax free society. No taxes existed in any form for anything, except if someone has his own business. Small business were allowed to a certain extend in the USSR. Small business operators like shoe repair business for example, or a private food seller who selling his produces in the private food market were allowed, but taxes was high.

So as you can see, it wasn't completely evil system, it had something very good that other "democracies" and "free world" did not have, do not have, and never will have.

And so is in China, while they became real capitalists about 30 years ago and got rich and wealthy in a very short period of time, they did not abandoned socialism completely, because two different systems can coexist with one another in harmony and implement the best of each other.


I like how you described the tithes issue, which is abominable sin for every church who practices such greedy and corruptive tradition which is completely opposite and against the spirit and the essence of the Lord's teachings.

Actually I will make a post concerning tithes, to show how hypocrites and greedy clergy of the church uses Old Testament Scriptures to their own advantage in order to profit from it.

 

[Alofa Atu]

....

The only persons that I am familiar with that use the word "churchianity" are 'bible students', 'Russelites', or WTS/JW members (who do not attend 'churches', but rather Kingdom Halls), but I grant the possibility that others might, though I have never met them personally. So, if I may ask a question of you, Does any of those designations, fit with your present affiliation/association, and if so, which? If not, it is fine, I am just curious, since the word was used.