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When Did God Choose His People?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
Calvinist' do not understand what they think they do.
Ephesians 1:10-14,That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.n whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:10-14,That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.n whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:29, . . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . .
Romans 8:30, . . . them he also glorified.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Agrees with Eph 1:4 ! Also the chosen are the equivalent of them whose names were written in the lambs book of life from the foundation Rev 13 8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Calvinism is tragic. It is Catholocism lite, IMO. Their salvation is subjective only, having nothing to confirm themselves as Christians except their own good works. They are the elect of God because they say they are. God does not say it. They are not elect, as much as they are elite. They are unconditionally elite in their own minds. They have spiritualized the entire Bible except for a few verses that they choose to isolate from the broader context to view literally and to apply to themselves.If they ever produced one scripture where God assures them personally that they are indeed elected to be saved from before the foundation of the world, then I will change my mind. But that will not happen.It is a collective election from before the foundation of the world in their theology and there is nothing personal about it. It is just wrong on so many levels.
The elect in the verses you quoted are those who are "in Christ" which is his body and synonmous with the church of Jesus Christ. The mystery of this age and dispensation is that both Jews and gentiles are in this body when they believe and are equal as the sons of God while Israel is in her national blindness and 40 year probation.
Lk 13:There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
He was speaking to Judean Jews, Jerusalem being the seat of govenment of Israel. Because they had not repented during the three year ministry of Jesus (who preached during all those years that the kingdom of heaven IS at hand) he decided to cut the tree down and remove it from his vineyard but was persuaded to give it a probationary time. It was cut down and removed in 70 AD, which not coincidentally, would have been the year that the generation of Jesus Christ would have ended had not Israel put him to death in 30 AD because they would not have this man to rule over them..
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
This is a fig tree in the vineyard of the person who owns the vineyard. This is important.
If the scriptures do not have a historical context that requires the reader to have at least some understanding of it, then please ignore any posts that I present here All these trees and vineyards and figures are explained somewhere in the scriptures and when and if God gives one eyes to see the light gets much brighter.
I can think of 4 prayers the apostle Paul prayed for us gentiles. They were all pretty much the same things. That we gentiles would have knowledge and understanding. Here is a line or two in just one of them.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Colosse was a gentile local church.
No one who holds to Calvinism should ever be arrogant, think highly of themseves, see themselves as spiritually elite, for all of us chosen by the Father from eternity past to be now found in Christ all deserved hell, and saved only His pleasure and grace and will
37818
Well-Known Member
Calvinists think God's choosing us before the foundation of the world is our supposed unconditional election.
Ephesians 1:4, . . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . .
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The trouble with theology is that all the systems quickly get into the weeds and become illogical. The question "When Did God Choose His People" registers with people as "Can I do anything about it now, or am I stuck with whatever God decreed?". The answer to the first is "before the foundation of the world" at least based on a single verse. At the same time, and truly equal in truth and application, to the first question, the answer to the second question is the answer given by the high Calvinist John Owen. He said, on the authority of Christ himself, that God will receive every single person who comes to him and that the question of election is not for you to contemplate. He said that Christ cannot help you if you don't believe. And he said that whenever the glories and virtues of Christ are taught it is always accompanied by an invitation, which is a real invitation.
These are two ideas, simultaneously true, that are hard (maybe impossible) to understand as a human. If you don't believe me, do as I have done and read the end level books on the philosophy of synchronistic contingency and whether the Reformers were more influenced by Thomistic philosophy or Augustinian determinism. Eventually, when all is said and done, you will end up contemplating whether Socrates, sitting in a chair, could truly have not been sitting in the chair at the same time, or, if the fact that he was actually sitting in the chair, even of his own free will, meant that he could not be doing currently otherwise, therefore it was a logical "necessity" that he be sitting in the chair in any possible world.
Obviously, the Calvinist theologians, some which would have really contemplated such things (others being far less educated would not), at any rate to a man, always had men when hearing the gospel, having to respond with faith. And they wrote that faith was therefore properly called a "condition" for salvation. At the same time, they believed much more was going on than God throwing out a set of propositions and then men having to decide their fate based on their own reason or the cleverness of the one presenting the gospel message.
I would say if your perception is that at some point you "decided" to believe you did indeed, because the Holy Spirit illuminated you through his word and you responded. And you responded because you were of the "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world. Otherwise, you would have surprised God by doing so. Do you really think you did that?
These are two ideas, simultaneously true, that are hard (maybe impossible) to understand as a human. If you don't believe me, do as I have done and read the end level books on the philosophy of synchronistic contingency and whether the Reformers were more influenced by Thomistic philosophy or Augustinian determinism. Eventually, when all is said and done, you will end up contemplating whether Socrates, sitting in a chair, could truly have not been sitting in the chair at the same time, or, if the fact that he was actually sitting in the chair, even of his own free will, meant that he could not be doing currently otherwise, therefore it was a logical "necessity" that he be sitting in the chair in any possible world.
Obviously, the Calvinist theologians, some which would have really contemplated such things (others being far less educated would not), at any rate to a man, always had men when hearing the gospel, having to respond with faith. And they wrote that faith was therefore properly called a "condition" for salvation. At the same time, they believed much more was going on than God throwing out a set of propositions and then men having to decide their fate based on their own reason or the cleverness of the one presenting the gospel message.
I would say if your perception is that at some point you "decided" to believe you did indeed, because the Holy Spirit illuminated you through his word and you responded. And you responded because you were of the "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world. Otherwise, you would have surprised God by doing so. Do you really think you did that?
The guy in the video seems to be on track with Calvin's double predestination.
But he doesn't mention the double. Maybe he's ashamed of it.
Guys, this single predestination junk is not what John Calvin taught!
John Calvin was a real man, he manned-up and owned his beliefs.
This single predestination is nothing more than cleaning up and covering up the crime scene.
Kinda like wiping the fingerprints off the knife that just stabbed a guy to death!
KenH
Well-Known Member
Sonny Herandez wrote a book defending double predestination in 2022.
Here's an excerpt:
"This chapter will present a consistent supralapsarian approach to defend the following biblical truths: election and reprobation are equally ultimate in the decree of God, and denying the biblical doctrine of reprobation is tantamount to rejecting the biblical doctrine of predestination, i.e., God’s sovereign plan of election.
...
According to the Bible, God created the wicked or reprobates for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4); thus, the wicked or reprobates will undeniably reject God and act incorrigibly. 1 Peter 2:8 explains why: “…even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed” (emphasis mine).
Therefore, the wicked will in fact stumble and reject the Lord. That is because God decreed their reprobation. So the wicked will reject God in His appointed time, and God will give them over to a reprobate mind. Bottom line: God is the sole ultimate cause of all things, and men are responsible for their sins."
Can be purchased here:
Amazon.com
KenH
Well-Known Member
Here's a video of a sermon that Sonny Hernandez preached on the Biblical doctrine of reprobation.
That explains that! Thanks
I'm fine with the Calvinists as long as they man-up with double predestination.
We've got to play by the rules.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'd look at Bunyan's "Reprobation Asserted". I think it's on line for free. His works are cheap anyway. It's a good look at the principles behind single predestination and it makes sense. But you are right, many Calvinists believe in a double predestination. There is a lot of scripture that leans that way too. The question again, is "are men predestined for punishment for actions God is making them do, or are they doing their own free will". If it is by their own free will then what difference does it make if they are predestined to do so (as long as the actions are their own free will).
Answer me this Charlie. Do you believe that God knows a future event is going to happen? If yes, then what if God, knowing this is going to happen uses it to make it part of an overall plan which God wants to accomplish? That means it is predestined, and God is not responsible in a moral sense for what the man does. I just noticed the post above so let me add this:
If you notice, here is the difference. Did God decree in the sense that his power was exerted to make it so that these men would be reprobated, or, did these men truly act according to their own free will and God allowed them to go on to reprobation. You have to remember people are all over the place on this and so was Calvin. Why is this? Because we as humans have no way to understand these things totally. The path you are taking, taken to it's endpoint has God unable to know what people are going to do. Thus huge chunks of scripture would have to be discarded because God has to wait to see what each of us does. People handle that in different ways.
Yes, I believe God knows all future events. I also believe that God shapes events according to His future will, but He will not override mans free will to choose.
He may incapacitate a person to keep them from a certain thing, or place something in their path that may give pause to their current action, bringing a change of mind.
But predestination as the Calvinists view it, not a chance!
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible isn't "all over the place on this".
Who is the "you" to which you are referring?
KenH
Well-Known Member
God ordained all things that take place. Not a single atom in the the entire universe has ever moved or will ever move except as God, the Sovereign Creator of the universe, has directed. Does that mean that man is not responsible, or not culpable for his sins? No. Man is responsible for his sins, as he is the one that actually does the sinning. Here is one example:
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Now, even though God made David number the people, David was still responsible for committing the sin.
Now, did David blame God, as free-willers apparently think would be the appropriate response by David?
No. How did David react?
2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
As the apostle Paul declared in Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Apparently, free-willers think they should have the power to decide what they will be, not the Potter - a bowl or a glass, etc. But they don't.
Apparently, free-willers declare that unless God allows them to be captain of their own fate, then they will not - to use their own terminology - willingly serve God.
I thank God that He has not left the salvation of His elect, chosen before the world began, up to their "free will", but instead salvation is based on the power of the almighty Sovereign of the universe:
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Now, even though God made David number the people, David was still responsible for committing the sin.
Now, did David blame God, as free-willers apparently think would be the appropriate response by David?
No. How did David react?
2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
As the apostle Paul declared in Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Apparently, free-willers think they should have the power to decide what they will be, not the Potter - a bowl or a glass, etc. But they don't.
Apparently, free-willers declare that unless God allows them to be captain of their own fate, then they will not - to use their own terminology - willingly serve God.
I thank God that He has not left the salvation of His elect, chosen before the world began, up to their "free will", but instead salvation is based on the power of the almighty Sovereign of the universe:
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The Bible is all over the place on this in the sense that there are times in the scriptures where God seems to act according to his own good pleasure and there are times where his interaction with men seems to be completely conditional and contingent upon how they respond to God. At any rate, the guy you have on is wrong in assuming that the conversation in Romans 9 is about the damnation of Esau vs the salvation of Jacob as if that can be used for the way it works for everyone, all the time.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Free willers of all types are who I am referring to.