When did John the Baptist Get saved?

[epistemaniac]

hay Sal... you said

Happens all the time. Many a lost person has done what the Spirit has commanded: tithed,honoured their mother and father, never bore false witness against their neighbor, never coveted their neighbor's wife, etc., etc.

Lost people do not do what the Spirit commands... errrr... thats why they are lost

they may superficially obey this or that command, but it is not by the Spirit... for by definition, a person who has the Spirit is saved... and anyone that doesn't have the Spirit in themselves is lost, ie devoid of the Spirit.
2Co 13:5 ESV Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Ezekiel teaches us that God gives His Spirit so that people can obey the commandments, then it only makes sense that if He gives the Spirit so that they can obey, then if they do not have the spirit they cannot obey... just common sense...

Eze 11:19-20 ESV And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (20) that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:27 ESV And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

blessings,
Ken

 

[saturneptune]

Ken,
Excellent post. A person without the Holy Spirit obeys laws for some other reason than obeying the Gospel and the Lord.

 

[epistemaniac]

thanks.... you know, it seems to me that the most evil acts of all are those that people think they can do without God... for instance, Ted Turner can give a billion dollars away, and while I am glad for those it may help (if it actually ever gets to those who need it!), but his act was not "good" because it came from a heart that feels it doesn't need God to do good, a heart that positively denies that God even exists.

blessings,
Ken

 

[mima]

Certainly I'm not equating John the Baptist with Jesus.
Salamander is the one that credited those words to my mouth.
Jesus was God and he had a human body (a human body that he still occupies today) what I'm saying is that that human body was without sin and did not need to be saved. Surely we can agree on that point.
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit before he came out of his mother's womb. He must have been saved while he was in his mother's womb, if you insist he had to be saved.
Question: can a person be filled with the Holy Spirit without having been saved first?

 

[Hope of Glory]

[***Moderator's Note: Personal attacks deleted. Debate the issues and do not attack the person holding the opposing view. Otherwise, your posts will be deleted like this one has been.]

[ May 20, 2006, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by Me4Him:
I "Assumed", incorrectly quite obviously, that ya'll understood that Jesus's flesh/blood was "Spiritual food/drink" to sustain life.

And the "Lust of the flesh" is the food that keeps satan alive in the world today, if no one sinned, satan wouldn't be "Alive" in the world.

This is allegorization at its height. Since when to you have the right to be so gnostic, claiming to have knowledge the rest of us don't know? Your arrogant 55 years doesn't cut it. Many cult leaders grew to be a ripe old age also.

It appears you're having the same problem understanding as when Jesus set forth the "allegorization".

The 55 years wasn't refering to me, but people I've taught who's been Pastoring that long, this one was the oldest, not to mention an 85 year old Baptist College Professor, who most likely has forgotten more about the scriptures than You and I together will ever know, and some of his college students.

It's not "NEW" to people who understand the scripture, just explained in an easier way to understand.

"Meat/tater sustain the life of the flesh, Jesus's "parable" of his flesh/blood is symbolic of food for the spirit/soul."

You are not even making any sense here. That which is food for our spirit is the Word of God.

Which word, the one "Written" (Scripture) or the one in "Flesh"??? (Jesus)

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Man plants a seed in the "Earth" to feed the "Natural man", God planted a "SEED" (Jesus) in the "EARTH" to feed the "Spiritual Man", (died/buried for sins)

And when that same "SEED" in planted in "GOOD GROUND", OUR BODIES OF DUST (the heart) it will bring forth fruit.


Mr 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Mr 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Bet ya never heard it explained that way.

You are still not making any sense nor addressing the rebuttal. They replied in such a way because at that point they didn't completely understand what Jesus meant. Many people still don't. I believe you are one of them.

Yep, Some still don't.

Since when does dust equal flesh in the Bible?

Since it was made from Dust, (Ground) and goes back to dust.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I "Thought" everyone knew this, evidently I was wrong.

You are right on one account. Words have meanings. So why are you making them say other than what they plainly mean?

Scripture refers to it as the "deep things" of God, it's an understanding that goes beyond the simple interpretation of the word, and to what it refer, (dust=flesh) the difference between "milk drinker" and "meat eater".

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it,

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Again your heretical gnosticism shws through. You are claiming a knowlege for yourself that no one but you knows. That is gnosticism. The Bible does not equate dust to flesh. Words have meanings and that is not one of them. Adam was made from the dust of the ground. That is true. But to equate that to "flesh" with the rest of the Bible is a gross misinterpretation. Have you ever heard of hermeneutics? Perhaps you should study it.

I see how far your "hermeneutics" and gotten you, Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stay with the Spirit teaching.

The words on paper that you seem to laugh at and mock are God's revelation to mankind. Are you sure you want to laugh at that?
DHK

That goes both ways, the people laughed/mocked Jesus's words because they didn't understand, we both know how that is going to turn out, and if you don't understand either, how can you be certain "my words" are my words, and not "God's words"???


Is it me, or is it Memorex. (God)

 

[npetreley]

***Insult removed***

[ May 20, 2006, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Salamander:

If you would follow the harmony and flow of the passages dealing with Jesus going to the innermost parts of the earth taking the keys away from satan and leading captivity away captive/ the O.T. saints, including John the Baptist, (when he got saved, BTW) you would have no confusion over the matter.

First of all, I am not confused and nothing in my post indicated that I was. I was merely pointing out that Christians can disagree without dividing over this topic (about Paradise).

Satan never had any keys - where do you get this? Do you think Jesus had to wrestle or fight with Satan after his death?

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by mima:
Back to addressing the question in this blog. John the Baptist did not experience salvation like you and I have. No rather John the Baptist was already "saved" filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit without which no man can be saved, before he came of his mother's womb. Therefore he was not in need of salvation after birth like you and I were. And also of course the Lord Jesus Christ did not need to be saved. So in actuality we have two people who were born already in a condition of acceptance to the Father,

What did the Lord Jesus tell the Rich Young Ruler??

"There is none good but God"

Scripture(both OT & NT) declares that all have sinned and that all are dead in trespasses and sin

And since God is no respector of persons---part of the "persons" includes John the Baptist who had to be born again just like his Pharasee friend, Nicodemeus!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
It appears you're having the same problem understanding as when Jesus set forth the "allegorization".

The 55 years wasn't refering to me, but people I've taught who's been Pastoring that long, this one was the oldest, not to mention an 85 year old Baptist College Professor, who most likely has forgotten more about the scriptures than You and I together will ever know, and some of his college students.

It's not "NEW" to people who understand the scripture, just explained in an easier way to understand.

No, I don't have a problem with literary devices. I have studied six languages and can speak fluently in two of them. Linguistics is no problem to me.
So a word to the wise: Jesus didn't allegorize. He used parables which isn't allegorization. The reason many didn't understand his words is because:
--they were spiritually discerned.
--because of their unbelief.
--their hearts were hardened against him.

The parables were meant specifically to instruct the disciples whose hearts were open to the teaching of the Word of God, but even they did not understand what he meant right away. They also were "slow of learning."
Your admission of: "It's not NEW to..." is an admission of your gnosticism. You are admitting that you have NEW knowledge that those who have gone before you, and have studied thoroughly the Scriptures have never had this knowledge before. It is NEW. You are a gnostic. You claim a higher knwoledge than what the Word of God reveals. This is a heresy that John in his First Epistle combatted. If you read it, you will see that the key word is "know" not "new." John was an eyewitness of the events and sayings of Jesus. He knew what Christ said and the miracles that He did. He spoke of what He knew. He could therefore counteract people with such philosophy of yours who thought that they knew better, a higher "spiritual" knowledge--the so-callled knowledge of the gnostics. (gnosticism--gnosis = knowledge in Greek).
There is no NEW knowledge in the BOOK that God has given us. It is His Word that He has given to mankind for our instruction.
The first one to use allegorization and the allegorical method of interpretation was Origen. He was declared a Heretic.
The one to popularize the allegorical method of interpretation later on was "St." Augustine, the hero of the Catholic Faith. Augustine advocated all kinds of heresies. He was a devout Catholic and an extreme Calvnist. That is where Calvin got is "Calvinism" from.
As the wisest man (apart from Jesus Christ) said:
"There is nothing new underneath the sun.

Which word, the one "Written" (Scripture) or the one in "Flesh"??? (Jesus)

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. It is God's revelation to mankind (the Bible) that He feeds our soul, not your kind of gnosticsim.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

You have an ability to copy and paste Scriptures. I am glad for you.

Man plants a seed in the "Earth" to feed the "Natural man", God planted a "SEED" (Jesus) in the "EARTH" to feed the "Spiritual Man", (died/buried for sins)

And when that same "SEED" in planted in "GOOD GROUND", OUR BODIES OF DUST (the heart) it will bring forth fruit.

"God planted a seed (Jesus) into the earth."
From this (heretical) statement I deduce:
--that you believe Jesus was a created being.
--that Jesus is not deity.
--that Jesus had to "grow" in order to be of any benefit to man.
You theology is way off base. And in many respects it is heretical.

Mr 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Mr 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Bet ya never heard it explained that way.

Don't think I want to.

Since when does dust equal flesh in the Bible?

Since it was made from Dust, (Ground) and goes back to dust.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I "Thought" everyone knew this, evidently I was wrong.

Yes you certainly are. I am glad to see that you admit it. Thou the body is initially made from dust and will eventually return to dust, that is not how the word "flesh" is used in the Bible. And you have no evidence to prop up this idea of yours.
Flesh in the Bible generally refers to the carnal nature. It means different things depending on the contest in which it is used. You have made a sweeping generalization by taking verses out of context and make them mean whatever you please, just as the Bible says "there is no God," when taken out of context.

You are right on one account. Words have meanings. So why are you making them say other than what they plainly mean?

Scripture refers to it as the "deep things" of God, it's an understanding that goes beyond the simple interpretation of the word, and to what it refer, (dust=flesh) the difference between "milk drinker" and "meat eater".

Unfortunately, as John had to combat gnosticiam in his day it has to be battled in our day. Those that believe in it have yet to feed on the milk of the Word of God, much less the meat. By claiming to have an undrstanding of the "deep things of God," is just another claim to your gnosicism. It is an arrogant claim that you know deeply things of the Bible whereas the typical Baptist on this board does not. I am correct in assuming this. By your stated and inferred beliefs I don't really believe you are a Baptist at all. I am correct in this? What are you? Part of the Third Wave movement? Charismatic? Oneness Pentecostal? Why don't you identify yourself more specifically? Your beliefs are definitely not Baptistic.

I see how far your "hermeneutics" and gotten you, Thanks, but no thanks, I'll stay with the Spirit teaching.

My teaching is from the Word of God which is my final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Your "spirit teaching" could come from anywhere. How do you know that your doctrine is not from a demon spirit? It could be. How do you know for sure? After all it is pure gnositicism.

The words on paper that you seem to laugh at and mock are God's revelation to mankind. Are you sure you want to laugh at that?
DHK

That goes both ways, the people laughed/mocked Jesus's words because they didn't understand, we both know how that is going to turn out, and if you don't understand either, how can you be certain "my words" are my words, and not "God's words"???

Does it? I don't put icons of laughing at then end of my posts when discussing the Word of God. I don't mock the Word of God. I do understand the Word of God. I don't allegorize it and come up with some far-fetched idea that the Word of God was never intended to mean in the first place.
Your words are just that "your words," because they contradict the clear teaching of the Bible. Opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You have presented opinion and not the truth of the Word of God. Your so-called truth (opinion) cannot be verified by Scripture which is our only standard and authority that we go by. Gnosticism is a heresy.
DHK

 

[Mel Miller]

DHK,

Thank you so much for the following quote giving
your assessment of Me4Him's lack of respect for God's Holy Word in which Jesus and Paul agree
that He will "raise up all believers on the last day".
________________________________________________
"I don't put icons of laughing at the end of my posts when discussing the Word of God. I don't mock the Word of God. I do understand the Word of God. I don't allegorize it and come up with some far-fetched idea that the Word of God was never intended to mean in the first place.
Your words are just that "your words," because they contradict the clear teaching of the Bible. Opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You have presented opinion and not the truth of the Word of God. Your so-called truth (opinion) cannot be verified by Scripture which is our only standard and authority that we go by. Gnosticism is a heresy". DHK
_______________________________________________

Me4Him's Gnostic's charts claim to present a
God who is "divided" within Himself ... a
heresy that makes God's actions "independent
and separate" from those of Jesus ... a heresy to which he keeps alluding.

Me4Him finally "bowed out" of discussions on
the Comparison of Mt.24 and I Th.4 after his
continual reminders that I should read the
truth at the "links" to his "charts". I guess
he got tired of "posting" his charts and of
my failure (lack of knowledge) to accept "the truth" that only he (and no one else) accepts.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

[ May 20, 2006, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Mel Miller ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
]No, I don't have a problem with literary devices. I have studied six languages and can speak fluently in two of them. Linguistics is no problem to me.

And evidently it's your "Education" you're "leaning on" to understand the scriptures, it's no wonder you're "mixed up".

So a word to the wise: Jesus didn't allegorize. He used parables which isn't allegorization. The reason many didn't understand his words is because:
--they were spiritually discerned.
--because of their unbelief.
--their hearts were hardened against him.

The parables were meant specifically to instruct the disciples whose hearts were open to the teaching of the Word of God, but even they did not understand what he meant right away. They also were "slow of learning."

And some never learn, If Jesus had not mentioned it in the scriptures but spiritually revealed it later, how many in the church would be calling it "Satanic", eating flesh, drinking blood??

And I'd bet you'd be in the forefront.

Your admission of: "It's not NEW to..." is an admission of your gnosticism. You are admitting that you have NEW knowledge that those who have gone before you, and have studied thoroughly the Scriptures have never had this knowledge before.

It may be new to you, but the Jews have used this method of teaching ever since the OT was written, this world and the things of this world are all pattern after the spiritual, one can explain the other.

Referring to it as "gnosticism" is a little arrogant isn't it, anything you don't know isn't worth knowing, should quality you for President of Hilleary Clinton club.

It is NEW. You are a gnostic. You claim a higher knwoledge than what the Word of God reveals. There is no NEW knowledge in the BOOK that God has given us.

Are you absolutely sure of that??

Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Seems there are some "NEW" things going to be revealed at the "time of the end", and if you know how to "tell time" by the scriptures, we are there.

The first one to use allegorization and the allegorical method of interpretation was Origen. He was declared a Heretic.

So was Jesus, many of his disciple walked away from him that day and never returned.

I don't know what Origen taught, only Jesus.

Do you know the earth is going to be covered by "WATER"....again???

Let's see if your "hermenuntics" can reveal that from the scriptures.

As the wisest man (apart from Jesus Christ) said:
"There is nothing new underneath the sun.

True, but man's knowledge has increased to the point he thinks he doesn't need God to interpret the scriptures for him, and the knowledge of old has been lost and replaced by this "New" ignorance you're espousing, that's why the "old" is "NEW" to you.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. It is God's revelation to mankind (the Bible) that He feeds our soul, not your kind of gnosticsim.

If Jesus's flesh/blood was "food" for the spirit, I don't think any reasonable person would find it a stretch of the imagination to believe "flesh/sin" feeds the spirit of Satan.

And when that same "SEED" in planted in "GOOD GROUND", OUR BODIES OF DUST (the heart) it will bring forth fruit.

"God planted a seed (Jesus) into the earth."
From this (heretical) statement I deduce:
--that you believe Jesus was a created being.
--that Jesus is not deity.
--that Jesus had to "grow" in order to be of any benefit to man.
You theology is way off base. And in many respects it is heretical.

God planted a seed (sperm/spirit) in "good Ground" (Virgin/Mary) that grew to produce a "good seed", that in turn could be planted in the "ground" (Tomb) to produce more "good seeds", providing the "Good seed" could find "good ground" to grow in.

Mr 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

As I said, the natural world is pattern after the spiritual and can be used to explain the spiritual.

Bet ya never heard it explained that way. Don't think I want to.

Maybe that's why you don't understand, your "wants" gets in the way of the spirit teaching.

You are right on one account. Words have meanings. So why are you making them say other than what they plainly mean?

It is an arrogant claim that you know deeply things of the Bible whereas the typical Baptist on this board does not.

IF I was the only one chosen to reveal something, it wouldn't be the first time in history, only one was chosen.

Does God have to go through you to reveal anything, and If you don't know something, neither can anyone else???

Hilleary would be proud of you.

If you want to see arrogants, take a look in the mirror.

My teaching is from the Word of God which is my final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Your "spirit teaching" could come from anywhere. How do you know that your doctrine is not from a demon spirit? It could be. How do you know for sure? After all it is pure gnositicism.

"How do I know", A person following the spirit wouldn't have to ask that question, the power of God's words are not in the words, but in the "Spirit", and Spirit bears witness to spirit, how do you know the preachers words are "God's words", the spirit, how do you recognize any words as being "Gods words", through the spirit, but if you dont have that "Second witness", the spirit, you really don't know the author of the words.

I do understand the Word of God. I don't allegorize it and come up with some far-fetched idea that the Word of God was never intended to mean in the first place.
Your words are just that "your words," because they contradict the clear teaching of the Bible. Opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You have presented opinion and not the truth of the Word of God. Your so-called truth (opinion) cannot be verified by Scripture which is our only standard and authority that we go by. Gnosticism is a heresy.
DHK

The only thing you have to support your opinion is words like, "Gnosticism", "heresy", you've presented no "scriptural evidence" to support it, simply because there is none.

When you condemn God's words, God has a way of showing/proving your ignorance to the whole world, it doesn't make any difference if it's Paul writing them, a Preacher speaking them, or even me typing them, If they're God's words, they're "GOD'S".

Somewhere down the road, mine or your ignorance is going to be shown/proved, that you can count on, "truth" doesn't stay hidden.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:

Me4Him finally "bowed out" of discussions on
the Comparison of Mt.24 and I Th.4 after his
continual reminders that I should read the
truth at the "links" to his "charts". I guess
he got tired of "posting" his charts and of
my failure (lack of knowledge) to accept "the truth" that only he (and no one else) accepts.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net [/QB]

The reason I "bowed out" was because you remind me of another fellow I know, and have had discussions with ever since the "Mike Reagan" board closed, how long has that been, "years"??

Today he is still asking the same question, still saying the same things, still just as confused, still trying to prove his theory is correct, even after, "uphteen" people over the years have shown him hundreds, if not thousands of contradiction of his theory,

Some people search for the truth, and will let "precept build on precept" in order to understand how it's constructed.

Others have their own ideas how it should be constructed and attempt to lay precepts where they don't go, and it's keeps falling down, and they keep trying to rebuild it in the same manner, but it keeps falling down, and they keep rebuilding it in the same manner, it's keeps falling down, and they keep trying to rebuild it in the same manner, but it keeps falling down, and they keep building it in the same manner,

Get the idea???

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
hay Sal... you said </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Happens all the time. Many a lost person has done what the Spirit has commanded: tithed,honoured their mother and father, never bore false witness against their neighbor, never coveted their neighbor's wife, etc., etc.

Lost people do not do what the Spirit commands... errrr... thats why they are lost

they may superficially obey this or that command, but it is not by the Spirit Bold is my reply. If they superficially obey the command, then whose command is it they are superficially obeying? ... for by definition, a person who has the Spirit is saved... and anyone that doesn't have the Spirit in themselves is lost, ie devoid of the Spirit. Ok, so you're saying that Baalim's donkey is saved?
2Co 13:5 ESV Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Ezekiel teaches us that God gives His Spirit so that people can obey the commandments, then it only makes sense that if He gives the Spirit so that they can obey, then if they do not have the spirit they cannot obey... just common sense...

Eze 11:19-20 ESV And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (20) that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:27 ESV And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE] Putting His Spirit within you is that indwelling, not that a person who is filled with the Spirit/ controlled by the Spirit is saved. That would be very dangerous theology since Judas Iscariot was numbered with the Twelve to say that the devil had more control by his spirit to have the Lord Crucified and somehow was overiding the Spirit of God who was in control the entire time.

By your estimation, the flesh would have been eradicted, when it is obvious the flesh is still alive and still sins. I say that because a person filled with the Spirit does not sin at that instance of time, but because of the flesh having a later dominiuitive influence causes a person to not be filled with the Spirit, that is all because of a laxity in the person in obedience to the Spirit.

I'm afraid the Word of God is much deeper than the shallow theologies expressed in favor of filled being equated with salvation.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Salamander:

If you would follow the harmony and flow of the passages dealing with Jesus going to the innermost parts of the earth taking the keys away from satan and leading captivity away captive/ the O.T. saints, including John the Baptist, (when he got saved, BTW) you would have no confusion over the matter.

First of all, I am not confused and nothing in my post indicated that I was. I was merely pointing out that Christians can disagree without dividing over this topic (about Paradise).

Satan never had any keys - where do you get this? Do you think Jesus had to wrestle or fight with Satan after his death? </font>

I believe you are confused over the matter of the location in the past of Paradise/ Abraham's Bosom.

I understand what you pointed out and I agree with your premise. I am NOT dividing over anything and if anyone is dividing over this theological discussion they are behaving very carnally.

Rev 1:17 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I think you may need to study on the keys mentioned in this verse and tell me where they came from and why Jesus made the statement?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
And evidently it's your "Education" you're "leaning on" to understand the scriptures, it's no wonder you're "mixed up".

Paul said:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus said:
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Paul commended the Bereans because:
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Over and over again we are commanded to study the Bible; search the Scriptures. Nowhere are told to learn by this "spirit-teaching" of yours. This is of the occult, not of God.

So who is mixed up??

And some never learn, If Jesus had not mentioned it in the scriptures but spiritually revealed it later, how many in the church would be calling it "Satanic", eating flesh, drinking blood??

And I'd bet you'd be in the forefront.

Jesus revealed exactly what he meant to his disciples. They understood his words. Because you don't reveals your lack of study in the Word of God, and your reliance on experiential "theology" if you can call it that. It comes from the Word of Faith theology doesn't it? It really isn't a theology at all, but so-called doctrine that is all based on experience. Experience has become more important than doctrine as has been shown in your posts.

It may be new to you, but the Jews have used this method of teaching ever since the OT was written, this world and the things of this world are all pattern after the spiritual, one can explain the other.

Your claim is that you have NEW knowledge. How can the Jews lay claim to what you say is NEW. You are contradicting yourself. The method of learning of the Jews was rote memorization. If you have read the Old Testament perhaps you will remember Ezra the scribe who took the Book of the Law, stood upon a pulpit, and read the words of the law to the people, and then told them the meaning of the words, while they stood there all day long and listened to Him.
Most of the time they simply memorized the law.

Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Your claim is false and made out of ignorance.

Referring to it as "gnosticism" is a little arrogant isn't it, anything you don't know isn't worth knowing, should quality you for President of Hilleary Clinton club.

I have not made any false claim. I have said what I have said based on your writings and the heresy that you have espoused on this board. Where do you get this "knowledge" from. It is "deep knowledge." It is "hidden". These are code words for gnosticism--secret knowledge available to some but not to others. It is knowledge that contradicts the Word of God.

It is NEW. You are a gnostic. You claim a higher knwoledge than what the Word of God reveals. There is no NEW knowledge in the BOOK that God has given us.

Are you absolutely sure of that??

Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Seems there are some "NEW" things going to be revealed at the "time of the end", and if you know how to "tell time" by the scriptures, we are there.

I was quoting Scripture. Are you going to argue with God. Or are you claiming that you have the knowledge that Daniel didn't, and was commanded to keep secret til the end of time.

So was Jesus, many of his disciple walked away from him that day and never returned.

I don't know what Origen taught, only Jesus.

Do you know the earth is going to be covered by "WATER"....again???

Let's see if your "hermenuntics" can reveal that from the scriptures.

Again you show your ignorance of the Word of God because:
As I have told you before Jesus did not allegorize the Word of God, contrary to what you assert.
Secondly, you contradict the Word of God, for God promised never to destroy the world with a flood again. Your allegorical method of interpreting the Bible only leads you into heresy.

True, but man's knowledge has increased to the point he thinks he doesn't need God to interpret the scriptures for him, and the knowledge of old has been lost and replaced by this "New" ignorance you're espousing, that's why the "old" is "NEW" to you.

You are relying on experience, a spirit, possibly even a demonic spirit (who would know) to interpret the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. Every believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling within to illuminate him to the truths of the Word of God. There is no truth apart from the Word of God. We are speaking here of faith and doctrine. Any doctrine outside of God's revealed truth in the Scriptures is heresy. It is man-made.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

If Jesus's flesh/blood was "food" for the spirit, I don't think any reasonable person would find it a stretch of the imagination to believe "flesh/sin" feeds the spirit of Satan.

However, the Bible teaches neither. This is your fanciful gnostic allegorization from which you deduce such heresy.

And when that same "SEED" in planted in "GOOD GROUND", OUR BODIES OF DUST (the heart) it will bring forth fruit.

"God planted a seed (Jesus) into the earth."
From this (heretical) statement I deduce:
--that you believe Jesus was a created being.
--that Jesus is not deity.
--that Jesus had to "grow" in order to be of any benefit to man.
You theology is way off base. And in many respects it is heretical.

God planted a seed (sperm/spirit) in "good Ground" (Virgin/Mary) that grew to produce a "good seed", that in turn could be planted in the "ground" (Tomb) to produce more "good seeds", providing the "Good seed" could find "good ground" to grow in.

So what I gather is something akin to what Benny Hinn teaches. Out of Christ came many Christs. "We are all little gods running around on this earth."
Is this your belief?

Mr 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

As I said, the natural world is pattern after the spiritual and can be used to explain the spiritual.

So you can quote Scripture. Jesus used that Scripture in a parable. He explained the same parable privately to his disciples. Why don't you look in the Bible to find out the true meaning instead of relying on your own opinion. The interpretation of the Great Teacher, Jesus, is much more valuable than yours.

Bet ya never heard it explained that way. Don't think I want to.

Maybe that's why you don't understand, your "wants" gets in the way of the spirit teaching.

I understand because I obey the Scripture. I study the Scripture. The Holy Spirit illuminates my mind to the truths of God's Word as I study. I don't understand how you can dig yourself into such a pit of heresy by relying on experiences rather than the truths of God's Word.

IF I was the only one chosen to reveal something, it wouldn't be the first time in history, only one was chosen.

Does God have to go through you to reveal anything, and If you don't know something, neither can anyone else???

Hilleary would be proud of you.

If you want to see arrogants, take a look in the mirror.

Know you wouldn't be the first one to claim to be a chosen one that God revealed messages to: Let's see. Who else claimed the same thing:
Jim Jones,
David Koresh,
Ellen G. White
Charles Taze Russel
Sun Yung Moon,
Muhammed
Confucius
Buddha
Joseph Smith

Yes, you are in a great company. These all claim to have had special revelation from God. Which one's theology is most like yours?
God does reveal things to me, but they are the truths of Scripture as revealed through His Word.
If there is something "revealed" that is so new that no one else has heard of it, then I know that I am wrong. "There is nothing new under the sun."

The very fact that you make claims to new knowledge shows the arrogance in your posts.

My teaching is from the Word of God which is my final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Your "spirit teaching" could come from anywhere. How do you know that your doctrine is not from a demon spirit? It could be. How do you know for sure? After all it is pure gnositicism.

"How do I know", A person following the spirit wouldn't have to ask that question, the power of God's words are not in the words, but in the "Spirit", and Spirit bears witness to spirit, how do you know the preachers words are "God's words", the spirit, how do you recognize any words as being "Gods words", through the spirit, but if you dont have that "Second witness", the spirit, you really don't know the author of the words.

When you rely totally on experience you don't really know what spirit is "bearing witness" do you. Satan is a good imitator. How do you know for sure that it is not a demon spirit that you are following after, one that only wants you to feel good about your religion, but keep you far enough from the truth so that you are totally ineffective.

The only thing you have to support your opinion is words like, "Gnosticism", "heresy", you've presented no "scriptural evidence" to support it, simply because there is none.

When you condemn God's words, God has a way of showing/proving your ignorance to the whole world, it doesn't make any difference if it's Paul writing them, a Preacher speaking them, or even me typing them, If they're God's words, they're "GOD'S".

I have given you plenty of God's Word throughout this post. I trust you will take it to heart.
It is ironic that you say I condemn Paul's words. I never did any such thing. It is you that have basically condemned all the words of the Bible by your spiritualization of the texts of the Bible. You endeavour to make them say other than what they were intended to say. That shows total disregard and even mockery of God's Word. You have done this consistently throughout God's Word. You have just called the kettle black.

Somewhere down the road, mine or your ignorance is going to be shown/proved, that you can count on, "truth" doesn't stay hidden.

You are right. Truth doesn't stay hidden. The truth is in God's Word, not in man's opinion of God's Word, which you continue to post on this board.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb and came in the Spirit of Elias. He father was told of God that he would be sent in the Spirit of Elias.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
God planted a seed (sperm/spirit) in "good Ground" (Virgin/Mary) that grew to produce a "good seed", that in turn could be planted in the "ground" (Tomb) to produce more "good seeds", providing the "Good seed" could find "good ground" to grow in.

So what I gather is something akin to what Benny Hinn teaches. Out of Christ came many Christs. "We are all little gods running around on this earth."
Is this your belief?
DHK [/QB]

Let's see if you are correct.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If Jesus is a "son of God", and a "God", and we're "Sons of God", what does that make us, "A GOD".

(we'll not mention the "Stewardship" (Godship) God gave Adam over the earth)

Being the "Body of Christ" and "Sons of God", entitles us to sit on the "right hand" of the throne with Jesus.

This is why we are given "THRONES" to sit and "RULE" along with Jesus during the Mill reign.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Just as God sits on his throne and rules, so will we, as 'gods" over the whole earth, The way Adam begun.

Lu 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

BTW, that same "water" Jesus gave the woman at the well to drink, the "Knowledge of the Lord", is the "water" that will again cover the earth, but it's "Spiritual water" not literal water as in Noah's flood.

If you're going to study/learn scripture, you'll have to learn what these words/symbols represents, short of that, it's an unknown foreign language.

Try this link, who knows, you might learn something.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000

 

[blackbird]

Me4Him

Your posts smack of Word of Faith as well as gnosticism

It is my firm belief you are not Baptist nor hold baptist doctrine---this is a Baptist only forum and we must ask you not to post this twisted doctrine in this forum neither in any forum marked Baptist Only

 

[DHK]

What heresy Me4Him.
You are now saying that we are gods. We are divine.
Do you go on to agree with other WOF believers and believe that Christ divested himself of his divinity in order that we could become gods (divine)?
Did Christ go to Hell and bargain with Satan to make an atonement for our sins?
Was it Christ or Satan that made an atonement for our sins?
DHK