When Did You Receive of God's Grace?

[Thinkingstuff]

I think this is where we are different. You most likely believe in Total Depravity. I do not think this is so. I see original sin as a privation of sanctifying grace. I believe Humans are still created in God's image and that image in us calls out to God which is why it is human nature to worship. If we do not worship the true God we create something to worship. Instead of Total Depravity I believe in conquicipense.

 

[convicted1]

My answer: every day, thanks be to God and to His glory.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Calling Upon the name Of the Lord as Per Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That calling upon His Name is the fruit and effect of having been quicken ! The word quicken is the hebrew word :

This is a perversion of God's Word. You have redefined, according to your own preconceived ideas what "calling on the name of the Lord" means. It means what it says. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Why are you adding to the Word of God? Why are you squeezing into this verse your unwarranted ideas when they aren't there. You would make a good Catholic apologist. That is the method they use.

Whosoever means whoever, in case you don't understand the KJV.
The word "call" means "to make an appeal to."
Whoever makes their appeal to the Lord shall be saved.
Believe in the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved.
It is that simple, but you try and make it complicated.
You lose on this one. The simplicity of the Bible is very clearly written.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

This is a perversion of God's Word.

Thats what you say when scripture evidence is given you ! That is your only defense !

 

[fortytworc]

Thats a lie, and what about 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The Elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began !

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

They received it then !

The prevenient grace of wesley is the attempt to allivate the problem of mans total inability spiritually to the things of God, and so they say God gives enough grace so to speak to give them a chance to make a wise choice or decision unto Life Eternal. This is false teaching. The sinner is Spiritually dead, and God gives those He has Chosen a New Spiritual Life, He quickens them, and then they call upon His Name as Per Ps 80:18-19

18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Calling Upon the name Of the Lord as Per Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


That calling upon His Name is the fruit and effect of having been quicken ! The word quicken is the hebrew word :

(Hiphil)

1) to preserve alive, let live

2) to quicken, revive

a) to restore (to health)

b) to revive

c) to restore to life

One must have Life to Call upon the Name of the Lord

So God out of His Great Love and Mercy when He finds His Dead Elect Child, Dead in Sin, Out of Mercy He quickens them Eph 2:5


5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Now dead in sins here in the greek is present tense, in other when were being dead, in a state of death, like Lazarus was Jn 11:14

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now the greek word Paul uses in Eph 2:5 for dead is nekros and means:

properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

The elect were in a continual state of spiritual death, a continual state of inactivity as it respects doing right !

It was while in that state, that God intervenes with Life, so it is said He hath quicken, which greek word is syzōopoieō:


to make one alive together

to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

You see how this word agrees with the hebrew word quicken in Ps 80:18

The greek word adds the definition to begat ! Thats crucial because the Elect are begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats why Paul writes in Eph 2:5 that we were quicken together with Christ, for His Resurrection is the firstfruit of the spiritual resurrection of all whom He died ! All this is of Grace ! God's Grace makes alive, it does not offer a choice , that is nothing but false teaching, nowhere found in the bible ! The concept of prevenient grace from the wesley suasion is nothing but another invention of men to boast about what they can do with their so called freewill , and it diminishes the Effects of the Cross !

1] When someone disagrees are they automatically lying? What happened to plain old difference of opinion?
2] Yes, the elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began ! Does that negate
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. ?
3] Weren't we all dead in our sin Eph.2:5 at one time, therefore all under some type of grace until awakened by the Holy Spirit?
4] Do any of us have permission and ability to read the hearts and motives of others (even our brothers and sisters in Jesus) that it can be determined by anyone that a particular doctrine is believed so they can "boast about what they can do with their so called free will"?
5] I am not aware of any human being having the power to "diminish the Effects of the Cross".
6]Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Are any of the elect not doing the good works which God has ordained them to walk in? If not, why not?
Just a couple more thoughts to consider: If God is locked in to His own predetermined will, and that will is irrevocable, then God is not free.(Make any sense?) If God has pre-ordained our lives then humans are not authentically free, and therefore are not accountable or responsible.

 

[saturneptune]

All three.

That is correct. There is always a new way to lead into a Calvin-free will debate. I suppose the thing I like least on this board is the endless rambling between the two positions (blah, blah, blah), when neither side knows for sure the mysteries of how they work together. So much endless babble over opinion, and that is all it is, babble.

For example, in this thread, the question is asked, when did you receive grace........? The word "when" puts a time element on the event, and since grace comes from God, there is no time element attached to it, but an eternal element. It shows shallow thinking and a total misconception of how God operates. When is a man made concept. Good answer on your part.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is correct. There is always a new way to lead into a Calvin-free will debate. I suppose the thing I like least on this board is the endless rambling between the two positions (blah, blah, blah), when neither side knows for sure the mysteries of how they work together. So much endless babble over opinion, and that is all it is, babble.

For example, in this thread, the question is asked, when did you receive grace........? The word "when" puts a time element on the event, and since grace comes from God, there is no time element attached to it, but an eternal element. It shows shallow thinking and a total misconception of how God operates. When is a man made concept. Good answer on your part.

Thank you for your good, sensible, and truthful post.

I think we all need to admit that we "see through a glass, darkly", and that some things are and will remain a mystery -- until we get to heaven.

 

[fortytworc]

And we should be able to ask questions, state our view, and genuinely disagree without being called heretics, and kicked to the curb. From time to time I wonder if the one stray sheep that Jesus left the others in order to bring it back was kicked off track by some of the 99.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

And we should be able to ask questions, state our view, and genuinely disagree without being called heretics, and kicked to the curb. From time to time I wonder if the one stray sheep that Jesus left the others in order to bring it back was kicked off track by some of the 99.

I surely agree. I know how that feels.

 

[savedbymercy]

forty

Yes, the elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began ! Does that negate
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. ?

of course not, however the all men that grace bringeth salvation to are the same that it was given to in Christ before the world began.

If noticed, this grace in Titus 2:11 is not offered grace, but Grace coming in spiritual and converting power, for it BRINGS Salvation, and in addition it teaches those it brings salvation to vs 12

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

This means they are alive spiritually in order to be taught spiritually ! The verse in no ways supports a offer of grace to all men without exception, that is teaching a lie , teaching what is not there !

I am not aware of any human being having the power to "diminish the Effects of the Cross".

A great many do it by stating that the cross of Christ will not save many for whom Christ died for ! What you call that ?

 

[saturneptune]

And we should be able to ask questions, state our view, and genuinely disagree without being called heretics, and kicked to the curb. From time to time I wonder if the one stray sheep that Jesus left the others in order to bring it back was kicked off track by some of the 99.

So what are you trying to do, become Christian martyr for the week? I looked through the entire thread and did not see one person called a heretic. However, given enough time, that is where every Calvin debate ends up. That is why I stay out of them, because both sides are basing their position on their baseless opinions.

 

[fortytworc]

Our God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is much more powerful than any action any person has and any effect that He desires cannot be diminished by anyone, whether they come from a perceived true or errant doctrinal view.
A side thought : The world will know we are His disciples if we agree with one another. John 13:35 Therefore; our main goal is to argue with others until they either agree, or we are convinced they are heretical beyond hope. ???

 

[fortytworc]

Not trying to be a martyr. Didn't see the word 'heretic' used. Not trying to present any side of a Calvin debate. I am new here and was just hoping to see believers calmly discussing their differences without arguing. sorry if i communicated something else.

 

[DHK]

Not trying to be a martyr. Didn't see the word 'heretic' used. Not trying to present any side of a Calvin debate. I am new here and was just hoping to see believers calmly discussing their differences without arguing. sorry if i communicated something else.

Welcome to BB, fortytworc. You may see some heated discussions here so I hope you have a tough skin. This one has been pretty tame. For the record SBM is on the hyper-Calvinist side, while Michael Wrenn is at the opposite side of the pole. Couldn't have two people further apart in the theological spectrum. A statement such as: "That's a lie," would indicate as much. The poster didn't lie. It was only a lie in the view of the theology of the Calvinist position because that is not what he believes, and the comment was totally out of order.
The best advice I can give you is to be prepared to defend the faith, hopefully in the grace that becomes that of a Christian.

 

[fortytworc]

Thanks DHK. I do have tough skin.Part of my church experience includes Independent, Fundamental, king James only Baptist. I know I can't lump them all together, but my experience included a mind set that the bible has an answer for everything. It seemed as if the scriptures were mostly to be used to make us feel smug in our superior knowledge. We then tried to argue [read 'fight' ]about just about everything under the sun...'Son'?
Plus I worked 16 1/2 years in a prison in Ohio, much of it on death row. I just prefer to try to discuss rather than argue. Name calling, mind and motive reading doesn't really go anywhere in learning in the spirit of Jesus. Thanks again.

 

[saturneptune]

Thanks DHK. I do have tough skin.Part of my church experience includes Independent, Fundamental, king James only Baptist. I know I can't lump them all together, but my experience included a mind set that the bible has an answer for everything. It seemed as if the scriptures were mostly to be used to make us feel smug in our superior knowledge. We then tried to argue [read 'fight' ]about just about everything under the sun...'Son'?
Plus I worked 16 1/2 years in a prison in Ohio, much of it on death row. I just prefer to try to discuss rather than argue. Name calling, mind and motive reading doesn't really go anywhere in learning in the spirit of Jesus. Thanks again.

Welcome to BB. I did not notice you had just joined. Actually, what DHK said is correct. This particular thread is calm. The subjects that create the most heat are Calvinism, KJVO only, and to a lesser degree, use of alcohol, open or closed communion, seven day creation, and various theories of end times. I am sure I missed some, but those are ones that come to mind. Also, you will notice that some are stuck on one issue, particularly Calvinism vs free will, and will create threads that appear to change the subject, but Calvinism or free will is at the root of the discussion. This subject is discussed ad nauseum.

I apologize for the martyr remark, but neither side has ever proven their position to the other, and select Scriptures are used to support each side. Names a lot worse than heretic have been hurled back and forth.

I would really like to hear your take on the issue, and why. Mine is that God is sovereign, and man has limited responsibility to respond. I believe we do not fully understand how they work together. I tend to agree with the God sovereign side more often than the free will side, but the point is, agreeing does not equate to what the Scripture really means.

 

[percho]

The Elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began !

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

They received it then !

that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

It was given, in Christ Jesus, before the world began (the times of the ages)

There is a verse that states exactly what that grace is that was given in Christ Jesus.

Do you know what the verse is?

 

[savedbymercy]

perc

that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

Yes, if we are elect !

 

[fortytworc]

Welcome to BB. I did not notice you had just joined. Actually, what DHK said is correct. This particular thread is calm. The subjects that create the most heat are Calvinism, KJVO only, and to a lesser degree, use of alcohol, open or closed communion, seven day creation, and various theories of end times. I am sure I missed some, but those are ones that come to mind. Also, you will notice that some are stuck on one issue, particularly Calvinism vs free will, and will create threads that appear to change the subject, but Calvinism or free will is at the root of the discussion. This subject is discussed ad nauseum.

I apologize for the martyr remark, but neither side has ever proven their position to the other, and select Scriptures are used to support each side. Names a lot worse than heretic have been hurled back and forth.

I would really like to hear your take on the issue, and why. Mine is that God is sovereign, and man has limited responsibility to respond. I believe we do not fully understand how they work together. I tend to agree with the God sovereign side more often than the free will side, but the point is, agreeing does not equate to what the Scripture really means.

It appears obvious to me that God is sovereign. He will do what He will do in any manner, time, and however He wants. While we pay lip service to the concept that "God's ways are not our ways...God is so far above us ...He is so 'Other' than us...We are like dumb sheep, like ants....His Incarnation is like us becoming ants in order to try to communicate with the ants what we know (science, math, relationships, emotions, philosophies, theology... our 'love' toward ants, why we became ants...) we then go on to explain how we have Him all figured out. His ways are not are ways, but I will now explain His ways. He is so far above us...Now listen to me as I bring Him down from His 'above' state...I think you get my point.
I am Not saying that we can know Nothing of our God and Savior. I just believe that we (me, you, all of us) think we know more than we really do. It would do us, and those around us well to re-approach Him and His Word as ' little children, for such is the kingdom of heaven.' Not immaturely still needing milk, but as those mature ones who, nevertheless still realize that we don't know more than we do know. Those who are growing but still know that we are His children.
I am 55 years old. I became a Christian when I was 10. I can say that I have been a serious student of the Scriptures for those 45 years. I can also say that today I have more questions than answers. [The reason for my signature] I really want to learn from as many as I can here at BB. I hope that most of us can reason together in an honorable, respectful manner. This did not answer your question much, but in time we might know more about one another than we care to know.

 

[saturneptune]

Thanks for your reply, and I look forward to discussing Scripture with you.