When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

[Brother Bob]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Well, this is diffently when the Lord will come to ramsom His church and pass judgement on the world, devil and his angels. This is the "times of the Gentiles, when Jerusalem will be trodden down, or tribulations". It is not a time when salvation shall come to the Gentiles which is the "fulness of the Gentiles", a completely different time.

BBob,

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello HankD, it is very nice to meet all you guys.

>The Great Commision is still happening.

I agree, but then the point wasn't that the Great Commission would come to an end, but that the Great Commission would be fulfilled to the nations before the Old Covenant age came to an end with the destruction of the nation of Israel in a terrible 7-year war in the midst of which the city and the sanctuary would be destoyed and all sacrifices and oblations would cease. But all these things could not happen until the Gospel had been preached throughout all the world for a witness to Christ.

>New nations were both formed and discovered after the apostolic age passed with the death of John.

True, but again, the issue is not the end of the Apostolic age, but the end of the Old Covenant age, which came to pass with the things Jesus foretold in Matthew 24, fulfilled down to the least jot and tittle to that very same generation to whom those things were spoken, but it only occurred after the Great Commission given to that first generation was fulfilled who "turned the world upside down" with their preaching. God grant that we Christians might be as faithful in carrying out the Great Commission to the nations of our own generation.

>Christ has not yet returned

Agreed. The second advent of Christ, when he comes not to seek and to save but to judge and reward both the righteous and the wicked, has not come to pass yet. But surely you recognize that there are also prophecies which talk about the first advent of Christ and the many, many things that would come to pass during those days, including the end of the Old Covenant and it's observance.

>Matthew 24

Was all about the end of the Old Covenant age and everything that it included which occurred in the days of Jesus' first coming and which were in fact the "signs" that the Messiah had come. If we did not believe the Gospel for any other reason, reason dictates that the people and city and Temple of God being destroyed in exactly the manner foretold by the Law and the Prophets during that generation is undeniable proof that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.

>Also "all these things" include are many events which have not yet occured:

Matthew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

>Many folks accept the literalness of Matthew 24:1-28 but want to "spiritualize" the rest of the passage which shows that the end can not happen until after the signs in the heavens has happened.

That's because the coming of Jesus and the Gospel of his life, death and resurrection has in truth been a "light" that like lightening has shown from the east and has gone forth into all the world to bring the light of the knowledge of God to men lost in sin and darkness. Considering all the passages which speak of the Gospel as the coming of "light" into the world, it shouldn't be strange to us Christians that Jesus would refer to the spread of the Gospel in those terms.

>The end of the age is yet to come.

The end of this New Covenant age is yet to come . . . the Old passed away in exactly the manner the Scriptures foretold and which Jesus warned was about to come to pass.

In Christ,
Deborah​

 

[HankD]

That's because the coming of Jesus and the Gospel of his life, death and resurrection has in truth been a "light" that like lightening has shown from the east and has gone forth into all the world to bring the light of the knowledge of God to men lost in sin and darkness. Considering all the passages which speak of the Gospel as the coming of "light" into the world, it shouldn't be strange to us Christians that Jesus would refer to the spread of the Gospel in those terms.

You proved my point by spiritualizing this passage. Personally I believe it will be literal, the literal sun will be darkened the literal moon will not shine, the powers of the literal heavens (atmosphere and outer space) will be shaken, a literal sign in the heavens will be seen, all will mourn, every eye will see Him including those who pierced Him.

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.​

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.​

Revelation 1

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

None of these events have happened as of yet.

HankD

 

[HankD]

The end of this New Covenant age is yet to come . . . the Old passed away in exactly the manner the Scriptures foretold and which Jesus warned was about to come to pass.

Granted, the New Covenant has begun without Israel (apart from the remnant which believes in Jesus Christ) as a nation to whom it was promised in the first place:

Jeremiah 31

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

But they shall be restored:​

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

HankD​

 

[Pilgrimer]

>You proved my point by spiritualizing this passage . . .

HankD, are you suggesting that the only consequences of the first coming of Christ were all literal, physical consequences? You don't believe Jesus accomplished anything of a "spiritual" nature? Surely not!

>Personally I believe it will be literal, the literal sun will be darkened the literal moon will not shine, the powers of the literal heavens (atmosphere and outer space) will be shaken, a literal sign in the heavens will be seen, all will mourn, every eye will see Him including those who pierced Him.

Then I believe you miss the point of those prophecies. Paul speaks of that event and his explanation is that the "heavens being shaken" was in fact speaking of the "removing" of the earthly things of the Old Covenant so that those "spiritual" things of the New Covenant (the Kingdom of God, which is eternal) might remain, but he says it so much better than I: "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth; but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only (there is your literal events), but also heaven (there are your spiritual events). And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore . . ." oh, listen to this . . . "wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace . . ." Hebrews 12:25-28

Clearly Paul is speaking here of the things of the Old Covenant being removed so that the things of the New Covenant might remain, and he specifically states we (New Covenant believers) have received a kingdom which cannot be moved, the Kingdom of God, which is heaven . . . a spiritual kingdom by the way! . . . while the old earthly kingdom was "removed."

You know, if the Word of God does not have spiritual meaning, then it does not speak of God, who is Spirit. Perhaps there were more things going on in those days than your interpretation is allowing you to see.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Brother Bob]

Granted, the New Covenant has begun without Israel (apart from the remnant which believes in Jesus Christ) as a nation to whom it was promised in the first place:

I do not believe the New Covenant was made without Israel. God said He would make it with Israel, not the Gentiles and God does not lie.

Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Hbr 12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hbr 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hbr 8:12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Don't you believe that the church has been cleansed up and their sins never to be remembered now??

Hbr 8:10For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Don't you believe the Laws are in our hearts and mind now??

If God did not make the Covenant with Israel, then there was nothing for the Gentiles to be grafted in to. God did not blind the nation Israel, but only blinded Israel in part. Only some branches were broken off until the fulness of the Gentiles, which is when the Gentiles were indeed grafted in to the Promises and New Covenant made unto Israel. Now, even Paul spoke of he might save some of them who were blinded. If they were still blinded Paul would not of made this statement in my IMO.

Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Mat 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Hbr 12:28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hbr 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[Pilgrimer]

>Granted, the New Covenant has begun without Israel . . .

Who told you that? It's not true. The New Covenant began with Israel. The Apostles are the very foundation upon which the whole church is built:

"Now therefore ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22

Not only is Israel included in the New Covenant, but Jews make up the very foundation of the church upon which the Gentiles have been built.

>apart from the remnant which believes in Jesus Christ . . .

The remnant of the Jewish nation which believes in Jesus Christ are the only Jews God counts as Israel.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Pilgrimer]

>If God did not make the Covenant with Israel, then there was nothing for the Gentiles to be grafted in to. God did not blind the nation Israel, but only blinded Israel in part. Only some branches were broken off . . .

Amen and amen!

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred and forty and four thousand . . . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits" . . .
The firstfruits of what? The firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, those very fields that Jesus said were "white unto harvest," ripe for the Gospel message of salvation.

James, the brother of our Lord, in his letter to the Christian Jews throughout the Diaspora, addressed his letter "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad . . ." clearly indicating his conviction that the Christians Jews, his brethren, to whom he was writing, represented the whole nation of Israel, all twelve tribes.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[HankD]

>Granted, the New Covenant has begun without Israel . . .

Who told you that? It's not true. The New Covenant began with Israel. The Apostles are the very foundation upon which the whole church is built:

"Now therefore ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22

Not only is Israel included in the New Covenant, but Jews make up the very foundation of the church upon which the Gentiles have been built.

>apart from the remnant which believes in Jesus Christ . . .

The remnant of the Jewish nation which believes in Jesus Christ are the only Jews God counts as Israel.

In Christ,
Deborah

But not as a nation.

After the resurrection, the apostles asked Jesus concerning the Kingdom and the Nation of Israel:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

Probably because of this statement which He made to the leaders of the nation:

Matthew 21

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

Then Jesus continued after His answer to the apostles and disciples in Acts 1:

Acts 1

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

We don't know exactly when it will happen when Israel will again receive the Kingdom and enter fully into the New Covenant as a nation but it will be preceded by the literal astronomical events in the heavens.​

As for the remark/inquiry that Jesus did spiritual things, that depends on how one defines "spiritual".​

Jesus died upon a real literal cross made of real wood.
He bled real literal blood which took away our real sins and gave us real eternal life.
He died a real and literal death and was buried in a real and literal tomb.
He arose in a real, literal and glorified body.​

Certainly you are propounding a neo-orthdoxy redefintion of words ands concepts which changes the literal meaning of words in the Scripture to suit whatever theological position one wants to mold the scripture into.​

I do understand that Jesus used symbolical or pictoral language such as in John 6:​

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.​

later He explained what He meant:
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.​

So, yes, there is an appropriate place for this kind of "spiritual" as in this chapter in John.​

But in my view and in the overwhelming view of the history and testimony of Christendom the Second Coming has always been viewed as literal and preceded by these cataclysmic and astronomical signs (but perhaps not always the view of the retoration of Israel).​

Could I be wrong in my view? Of course.​

I understand your view and I respect it because it has credibility and has always had those in the church who have held it.​

However I gather myself with those within the church who believe that God Himself will restore Israel as a nation and return the Kingdom to them.​

Here are a couple of passages amongs many which indicate this:​

Isaiah 1
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.​

Zechariah 8:
1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.
3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.
10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.
11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.
13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.
14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.
16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:
17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
18 And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying,
19 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.
20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.​

HankD​

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello HankD,

Yes, as a nation. The remnant of the Jewish nation that follows Jesus Christ are the only Jews that God counts as the nation of Israel, and God did literally count them and their number is 144,000. Of all the millions of Jews who have lived and died since the beginning of time, only 144,000 are shown standing redeemed before the throne of God. Regardless of whether that number is actual or representative (and I pray God that it is representative and that the actual number is far, far higher), but regardless, 144,000 whether literal or figurative inarguably represents a small number from among the millions that have lived and died throughout time. When Jesus said “narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it,” he wasn’t just speaking of the Gentiles. And when the scripture said that a Jew is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh, but those Jews who are circumcised in the heart are God’s people Israel, Paul was referring to New Covenant Jews being true Jews, not that Gentiles become Jews when they join the church.

>After the resurrection, the apostles asked Jesus concerning the kingdom and the Nation of Israel . . .

I disagree with what you are implying here. You are suggesting that since the disciples asked Jesus when he was going to “restore the kingdom to Israel,” that it means therefore that Jesus is going to “restore the kingdom to Israel.” Consider this, first, the disciples were at that moment still disciples, which means students, not apostles, which means teachers. And they still did not yet really comprehend the coming and the person and the work of Jesus. Think about it, think how Jesus struggled to try to teach them even the most simple spiritual lesson, how hard it was for them to grasp it. Of course, we now know the rest of the story, so to speak, we understand what Jesus came to do, we understand that he came for the purpose of laying down his life to ransom man’s soul, but the disciples didn’t understand that, not until later, not until when? When they received the Holy Ghost which alone is able to open the eyes of the understanding that we might comprehend the things of God because these things are “spiritually discerned,” remember?
It is an easy slip to read into the minds and thinking of the disciples an understanding of things that they simply did not yet possess. Jesus even told them point blank not long before this that he had many things to teach them but they were not able to receive it yet. That’s because the Holy Ghost had not yet been given. So what was Jesus’ response to their question? That it wasn’t of them to know the times and seasons which God had placed under his own authority, but they would receive power when the Holy Ghost came upon them and then they would become apostles (teachers) who understood the coming and the person and work of Christ and would carry that Good News throughout the world. But to assume that the disciples understood all these things before they were “endued with power from on high” is reading into their minds knowledge and understanding that they did not yet possess. Heavens, one of them drew a sword and tried to prevent the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus! No, they didn’t understand the coming of Jesus or what the Scriptures had foretold about his coming, not until the day of Pentecost.
And you’ll notice that after they received the Spirit and began to teach and preach the Gospel, not one of the Apostles ever again spoke of the Rabbinic messianic doctrine which interprets the promise as a promise to “restore the kingdom to Israel,” as Rabbinic Judaism and Millennial Christianity teaches it. Instead, born again Apostles of Christ all consistently taught the Kingdom of heaven and the necessity of faith in the blood of Christ for remission of sin to receive the Holy Ghost and be born of God into that celestial country that Abraham saw by faith.
The same mistake is made when students read the question posed by the disciples in response to Jesus saying the temple complex would be destroyed. The explanation is given that when the disciples asked what would be the signs of Jesus’ coming that they were speaking of his second coming, but the truth is that the disciples didn’t even know about a second coming when they asked that question, they didn’t even know at that time that Jesus was even going to leave and return to heaven, let alone that that he would “come again” from heaven. It wasn’t until days later, at the Last Supper in fact, hours before his arrest and death, that Jesus broke the news to his men that he was “going away,” talking about his ascension into heaven after his resurrection. They had no clue to what Jesus was talking about. Read the conversation again in John 13 – 17. In fact, at John 13:31, after the betrayer of our Lord left the room, you can almost see Jesus lean forward and begin to speak in quiet but earnest tones to prepare these men for the difficult hour of darkness that was quickly approaching. He had so much to tell them, but they were not yet able to receive it all, but with what earnest love Jesus must have desired to offer them comfort and encouragement that would carry them through the dark days ahead when he would be arrested, crucified, and lay dead in a cold tomb. He knew they would not understand, and their faith in him would be sorely tested, and how much he must have desired to focus their eyes and their hearts on the promise of the great blessings that were to follow, of his resurrection and the fellowship of the Father and Son that they would enjoy after the bitter night of mourning they were about to endure. To assume that the disciples were asking days before what would be the signs of his return from heaven, when they clearly did not even know yet that he was going away to heaven until the Last Supper, is, again, reading into their minds and questions knowledge and understanding they simply did not yet have.
You can just imagine the circumstances of the Mt. Olivet discosurse. To an orthodox Jew, and mind you, the disciples were raised up in the traditional Rabbinic interpretation of Messianic expectation, and to them the idea that the temple and all it’s buildings were going to be utterly destroyed would be shocking. They were expecting the Messiah (and they were convinced that Jesus was him) to fulfill the promises in exactly the manner that Rabbinic Judaism had all worked out long before, and orthodox Rabbinic Judaism had it worked out that the Messiah would come and would exalt the kingdom of Israel to a geo-political rule over all the nations of the earth, who would then be subjects of Israel, God’s “kingdom on earth,” or the “messianic kingdom” (a doctrine that is not found anywhere in the New Testament) which is exactly what the phrase “restore the kingdom to Israel” referred to. But the Rabbis got it wrong, tragically so, and their misguided interpretation of the kingdom promises being earthly in nature is what led so many of the Jewish people to follow the false messianic vision of the Zealots that led them to rebel against Rome and attempt to establish the messianic dream of their own darkened minds and heart . . . and resulted in the complete destruction of the nation and the whole Mosaic economy . . . just as the Law and the Prophets had foretold.
So for this and other reasons I do not agree with the idea that we should base our doctrine of “the kingdom” on what the disciples understood and spoke of before they were born again . . .

“Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes, as a nation. The remnant of the Jewish nation that follows Jesus
Christ are the only Jews that God counts as the nation of Israel,
and God did literally count them and their number is 144,000.
Of all the millions of Jews who have lived and died since
the beginning of time, only 144,000 are shown standing
redeemed before the throne of God. Regardless of whether
that number is actual or representative (and I pray God
that it is representative and that the actual number is far,
far higher), but regardless, 144,000 whether literal
or figurative inarguably represents a small number
from among the millions that have lived and died throughout time.

I respectfully disagree.
The 144,000 are Messanic Jews from the Church
Age (the Time of the Gentiles) rewared with personal
service to Jesus during the Tribulation (of the
Antichrist and the Messiah-less) Time Period.
IMHO the view into heaven In Revelation 7 is just
after the Pretribulation Rapture2* while the
Tribulation Period is going on earth.
(The countless saints under the throne are all
the living & dead saints saved from going
into the Tribulation /of the bad guys/ Period.
A countless number in a book that talks about
200 Million evil ones means there are more than
200,000,000 people saved among the mostly
gentiles /but including Messanic Jews/.)

Rapture2 = the Pretribulation Rapture1 (a change into
new eternal bodies of the living saints)
following close on the heels
of the Resurrection1 (a change into
new eternal bodies of the dead saints).

God's plan noted among the MYSTERIES not
known in the Old Testament but explained in
the New Testaments.

Anybody ready for my writing on the Mysteries
and how they fully support the Pretribulation Rapture2?

Anyway, when the Antichrist goes into the newly
built temple at the middle of the Tribulation Period
and declares himself as God -- then the not Messanic
Jews today - Jews who survive the first half
of the Tribulation Period -- these Jews will believe
that Jesus is their Messsiah and call Him Lord
making Him their Savior as well (just like we Gentiles
do in the Church Age).l Many will be saved then
when they see what The Antichrist (AC) does in the temple.
Perhaps he will enter the Temple to dedicate it's
completion? (if He is Jewish?). Or maybe the False
Prophet will be Jewish and declare the AC is God?
Anyway - all Yisrael shall be saved, as predicted in
Romans 11 - Yet Jews, like Gentiles will be saved like
Romans 9:10 says.

 

[HankD]

Dear Pilgrimer,

Thank you for your response and the food for thought.

At this point I would have to say that we don't agree on this aspect of the Scripture -The Nation of Israel and Things to Come.

However, you have apparently given this subject a lot of thought and that is a good thing as so many of our brethren have not.

One thing in response: True the Apostles were not yet well trained in apostolic duties, but remember they (even in their immature state) were being used by the Holy Spirit in what they said.

But even those whom the Spirit used to make the heavenly utterences were not always aware and/or understanding of what they were saying or writing but were uttering those things meant for a future generation.

1 Peter 1

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.​

So, the answer given by Jesus in Acts 1 concerning the Nation of Israel and the Kingdom must be considered (as you have done, as I have done and many others). He could have very easily told them they were wrong for the benefit of future readers (you and I) but He did not and apparently left it up to our discernment. Had He told them they were wrong and that Israel as a nation would never receive the kingdom we would not be having this discussion.​

But He did not and we have come to different conclusions concrning the answer He did give. Well and good.​

I don't want to labor the point in terms of a clashing of swords as debates of this nature don't always end well. Eschatology (study of end times) has myriads of views and usually is a fruitless pursuit concerning the pursuading of others.​

Those who get as far in their diligent searching of the Scripture to formulate an echatological view are often committed to it because of their investment of personal time and resource (not to mention our pride).​

So, I try to keep it as a fellowship of an infomative sharing of views.​

God bless you in the pursuit and furtherance of His glory, soon to be revealed to the world.

Revelation 1

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.​

HankD​

 

[Pilgrimer]

>Thank you for your response and the food for thought.

You are welcome Hank, and thank you for responding with such grace.

>At this point I would have to say that we don't agree on this aspect of the Scripture -The Nation of Israel and Things to Come.

At this point I would have to agree!

>One thing in response: True the Apostles were not yet well trained in apostolic duties, but remember they (even in their immature state) were being used by the Holy Spirit in what they said.

I don’t think that can be correct. The spirit that was using Peter to rebuke Jesus for speaking of his death and resurrection wasn’t the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 16:21-28)

>So, the answer given by Jesus in Acts 1 concerning the Nation of Israel and the Kingdom must be considered (as you have done, as I have done and many others). He could have very easily told them they were wrong for the benefit of future readers (you and I) but He did not and apparently left it up to our discernment. Had He told them they were wrong and that Israel as a nation would never receive the kingdom we would not be having this discussion . . . But He did not

But that’s just it, Jesus spent 3 ½ years preaching and teaching about “the coming of the kingdom.” Think of all those parables and simple lessons Jesus taught: “The Kingdom of God is like” . . . “The Kingdom of heaven is like unto” . . . Jesus even taught the people to pray “Thy Kingdom come,” and he never once, ever taught a “Messianic” (as the Jews call it) or a “Millennial” (as the Christians call it) earthly kingdom. Never. In fact, he explicitly stated “My kingdom is not of this world,” and told his disciples point blank that the kingdom was “within” and that it’s coming would not be something they would be able to observe with their eyes. Now my question is, considering all that Jesus taught about “the coming of the kingdom,” why would we allow eschatological extrapolations to overthrow all his teaching in favor of the land of Israel as the “kingdom” the Scriptures promised?

But you have been so gracious to listen to my rants, so please allow me to offer up one more thought for food in the years to come, especially as you continue to read and study the Old Covenant Law and Prophets.

I am assuming that you would have no difficulty in agreeing that there are, in the New Testament, two “Jerusalems” that are taught in Scripture, that Paul says are allegorical. The earthly Jerusalem symbolizes the Old Covenant, and the heavenly Jerusalem symbolizes the New Covenant. Regardless of what we believe or understand about these two “cities,” let’s operate just from the basic point of agreement, that there are two cities both named Jerusalem which represent the two covenants. So saying, let me suggest this:

When you read through the Old Testament, throughout both the Law and the Prophets, you cannot help but see that there are two drastically different prophecies given about Jerusalem.

The first are those manifold prophecies woven all throughout the Law and the Prophets which speak of Jerusalem being redeemed and glorified by God, being exalted above all the nations, a city of light and life and peace, a city to which all the nations of the earth would one day come to worship God and the Lamb, a city from which one day would flow the river of the water of life, an eternal city, a holy city, a city of righteousness, etc.

And then there are other prophecies about Jerusalem. And those prophecies speak of a city which is an harlot, who time and time and time again broke covenant with God and turned to idolatry, even committing the abomination-of-all-abominations, they took their firstborn sons who belonged to God and they burned them alive in fire as an offering to Baal. She, this apostate Jerusalem, committed fornication with the kings and rulers of the earth, jumping into the sack with every prince that came along who was hung like a donkey (that’s the rather crude way the Scripture refers to it but how grossly accurate). This Jerusalem, the one who played fast and loose with God and took the wealth and glory God had clothed her with and turned from God and gave these sacred gifts to her lovers. And even worse, these prophecies were about a Jerusalem who not only reveled in her sins and abominations, but when God sent prophets and wise men to correct her . . . she stoned them. Well did Jesus say of that generation of Jerusalemites that they would “fill up the measure” of bloodletting their fathers had begun by their persecution of the apostles and prophets of Christ. And every one of these prophecies throughout both the Law and the Prophets speak of the judgment and destruction that would come upon Jerusalem . . . in the day when God visited her . . . in the person of His Son.

For me, eschatological matters notwithstanding, it is a simple Gospel matter to figure out which prophecies were speaking of the New Jerusalem, and which were speaking of the Old. And lest there be any shred of doubt about the truth of these things, consider this . . . in the day of the coming of Jesus Christ, when the cornerstone was laid for that glorious New Jerusalem . . . what happened to the Old?

“But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a sword pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true; and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled . . . They shall look on him whom they pierced.” John 19:33-37

“They” shall look on him whom “they” pierced. The only Jews whom God judged for having “pierced” Jesus Christ are those who took part in his crucifixion.

I have enjoyed and was in much need of this time of fellowship, Hank. I thank you so much for bringing our discussion to end on such a graceful note. May we all grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to him be glory and honor and praise, both now and forever. Amen.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Brother Bob]

Someone please quote me scripture where the nation of Israel were cutoff. Are not the election the nation of true Israel? I know you probably quote me the follow:

Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

But, please read on as Paul explains who was blinded.

Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

That is not the nation of Israel that was blinded but only some branches.

Again, please give scripture where the whole nation of Israel was cutoff.

Unless you can give scripture where the nation of Israel were cut off, then the rest is mute. Thank you,

BBob,

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Ed, I trust it is okay if I use your first name. May I say it is very nice to meet you.

>The 144,000 are Messianic Jews . . .

Messianic Jews is just another word for Christian Jews, those descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who have been saved by faith in the blood of Christ for remission of sin. That includes all those of the Old Testament and all those of the New Testament . . . in other words, “all Israel.” The rest don’t count.

>Many will be saved then when they see what The Antichrist (AC) does in the temple . . .

My understanding is that Jews, like Gentiles, are saved when they believe without seeing (by faith) that Jesus is the Christ.

But consider, if the total destruction of the entire nation of Israel, the desolation of their holy city, their sacred temple where God dwelt among them being “wiped off the map,” their people being slain by the millions, the sea of Gallilee, where Jesus once walked on water literally being turned red with blood, the Jordan River, that sacred flow of water through which Joshua led the children into the land of promise being literally damned up and the flow stopped because of all the dead bodies choking it, with tens of thousands of emaciated Jewish bodies, men, women and children, being thrown over the walls of Jerusalem into the “Valley of Slaughter” (the Hinnom valley, or GeHenna in Greek which is translated “hell”) where their rotting carcasses were left to be food for the beasts of the earth and fowls of the air, famine so rampant that Jewish mothers cannibalized their own children . . . if seeing all that fulfilled, exactly as the Law and the Prophets had foretold, in the days of the coming of Jesus of Nazareth . . . if those “signs” are not enough “evidence” to convince the Jew that Jesus is the Christ . . . a thousand anti-christs sitting in a thousand temples will not make them believers . . .

Respectfully,
Deborah

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes, Sister Deb -- Call me 'Ed' (Don't confuse me with Ed Sutton tho )

There were about 3 Million Jews living in the Holy
Land (Roman Empire) 66-70 AD. The Roman
Empire General (Later Emperor) Titus lead the
attack - Jerusalm was largely destroyed and the
top of the Temple mount leveled (It was used
for a Roman Military camp thereafter).

Our beloved Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua
says the following Mat 24:2122 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not from the beginning
of the worlde to this time, nor shalbe.
:22 And except those dayes should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake those dayes shalbe shortened.

Though you have described the horror of the
death of the Jews in 66-70AD, they are nothing like
things that have happened since.

In the late 12 Hundreds (1200-1299)
and the late 13th Century (1201-1300) there were
some 20 Million people in Europe died of the
Black Plague in the course of one generation
-- worse than AD70
(Each area just had the Black Plague just a few years
then only those immune to it survived, 1/3 to 1/2
the population of each districts would die of the
rat & flea born disease.)

The year Attila the Hun ravaged everything
from Mongolia to Germany killed Millions of people
-- -- worse than AD70.
Kubla Khan & the Mongol Horde ravaged the
same territory in a different era.
-- worse than AD70
(both Kubla and Attila were equal opportunity killers -
everybody got killed regardless of race, creed,
color, sex, religion or orientation).

In the early 1940s (1940-1949) Hitler Killed
some 15 Million Europeans - some 6 Million of
them Jews - worse than AD70.

Sorry, the 'great tribulation' time has not
happened yet. How will you know when it
has started & is happening? (Read Revelation 6:12-17
below) This will be after the pretribulation
departure of the Saints taken from Earth to
Heaven on the 'Arms of Jesus' Express!

Rev 6:12-17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And I behelde when hee had opened the sixt seale,
and loe, there was a great earthquake,
and the sunne was as blacke as sackecloth of heare,
and the moone was like blood.
13 And the starres of heauen fell vnto the earth,
as a figge tree casteth her greene figges when
it is shaken of a mightie winde. *
14 And heauen departed away, as a scroule,
when it is rolled, and euery mountaine
and yle were mooued out of their places.
15 And the Kinges of the earth,
and the great men, and the rich men,
and the chiefe captaines, and the mighty men,
and euery bondman, and euery free man
hid themselues in dennes,
and among the rockes of the mountaines,
16 And said to the mountaines and rocks,
Fal on vs, and hide vs from the presence of him
that sitteth on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lambe.
17 For the great day of his wrath is come,
and who can stand?


* this wording sounds like the 'departure'
(falling away in the KJVs) of the Saints
(the gathering together of the Saints) described
in 2 Thessalonians 2:1&3.
I wonder if Jesus taking the dead in Christ
out of the graves actually causes the earthquakes
of that day?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 6:12-17 (forgot to list version):
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a
great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to
the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a
mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled
up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its
place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich
men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free
man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the
mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us
and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from
the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has
come, and who is able to stand?”

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period
(as seen on Earth).

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation

Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there
came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne,
saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings:
and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were
vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the
Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance
before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse
of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the
mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen,
euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed
God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was
exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0
earthquake
one million places on earth at the same time
(force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church
of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

No Wrath of God will ever be put on His
Children - Never, nerver ever. "Salvation"
is the opposite of "Wrath of God".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jeremiah 31:35-36 (KJV1611 Edition):
Thus saith the Lord which giueth the Sunne
for a light by day, and the ordinances
of the moone and of the starres for a light by night,
which diuideth the sea when the waues
thereof roare, the Lord of hosts is his name.
36 If those ordinances depart from before me,
saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall
cease from being a nation before me for euer.

So Israel will be a nation again:
as long as the sun rises and sets,
and the waves slosh. Oh, Israel
became a nation again in 1948 (When
I was 5 years old).

 

[HankD]

Dear Pilgrimer,

Just to answer your last inquiry on a positive note:
Yes, I know that there is a New Jerusalem which eventually will come down from heaven.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.​

In my view this is the dwelling "place" Jesus said He would prepare for us:​

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

I agree that there are both literal and allegorical entities in the Scripture.
Jesus used a lot of symbolism (I am the door I am the light of the world, etc). I understand that.​

The issue here is how we sort it all out. Usually the context is the key but quite often He confused both the disciples and those who hated Him with His symbolism. Remember "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."?​

Take also (for instance) the Book of Revelation.
There are as many views of the Book of the Revelation as (perhaps) people who have read it.​

It is a good point you made about "they who pierced Him".
However as a Nation even to this day, Israel has not accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. They have never "mourned" Him as their "firstborn".​

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.​

Had these things happened at His crucifixion then yes your view would have total credibility.​

However, being so inclined to literalness, I dont see this passage and the similar passage in the Revelation where "every eye" is seeing Him and they which pierced Him simultaneously mourning en masse along with wailing on the part of all the kindreds of the earth as being fulfilled at His First Coming :​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

And that not until the moment in time when He comes in the air and we are caught up with Him in the clouds:​

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

Your brother
HankD​