F
FrankBetz
Guest
I've noticed when mv proponents are put to the test, their delineation and attacks on the KJB are exposed, their insiduous comments are confronted, that somehow the "topic" gets "CLOSED".
Humph!
Humph!
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Frank, I don't recall anyone ever attacking the KJV in any Baptist Board posts. If I am wrong, I apologize. I think most people revere the KJV. There has never been nor will there ever be another version close to the KJV in beauty and majesty (even though the NKJV comes close). However, KJVO adherants are often quick to belittle any other Bible version when they get backed into a corner because they can provide absolutely no scriptural evidence or support for the KJVO myth. It is then that many KJVOnlyists start attacking other Bible versions as being less than the word of God.
Right and wrong. Right, when you say that no other versions can come close to the KJV in beauty and majesty, though I would take this furthet to include textual reliability. Wrong, when you say that KJVO folk attack the MV's for being less than the Word of God. The "attack" on the MV's is because of the inferior texts that were used for the Greek versions that these versions are based on, and the little, if any, regard shown by the likes to Metzger, Aland, Nestle, Black, etc, to the complete Infallibility and Inerrancy to the Word of God. The anger ( I use this word because of how I feel towards most MV's, even though I am not a KJVO person) that there is for these versions, that pretend to be making an easier and more reliable translation of the Bible, when in fact they are taking more and more away from the original, which I believe that God in His providence saw was retained in the KJV. I also like the NKJV, though it is not as good.
Right and wrong. Right, when you say that no other versions can come close to the KJV in beauty and majesty, though I would take this furthet to include textual reliability. Wrong, when you say that KJVO folk attack the MV's for being less than the Word of God. The "attack" on the MV's is because of the inferior texts that were used for the Greek versions that these versions are based on, and the little, if any, regard shown by the likes to Metzger, Aland, Nestle, Black, etc, to the complete Infallibility and Inerrancy to the Word of God. The anger ( I use this word because of how I feel towards most MV's, even though I am not a KJVO person) that there is for these versions, that pretend to be making an easier and more reliable translation of the Bible, when in fact they are taking more and more away from the original, which I believe that God in His providence saw was retained in the KJV. I also like the NKJV, though it is not as good. </font>[/QUOTE]Of all the MV's I have ever read (and I have never read the JW New World Translation or the SDA Clear Word Translation), all of them present the creation story, God's covenant with Israel, the story of Christ's life, the plan of salvation, etc., so I can't agree that they "take away" from the word of God. And as for the texts they come from, since we do not have the original autographs, which texts are most accurate is merely a matter of what we believe.
PASTOR MHG
New Member
KeithM,
Even though I am KJVO, I will say that some on my side of this issue have done a great diservice to it. I would half to agree with icthus on the comment with regard to the underlying texts, but that doesn't excuse the KJVO crowd for some of the stupid things that get said.
I would also say that it goes both ways...when you get right down to it, men are agenga motivated. Its difficult to subdue the old flesh when the battle rages. Stupid and foolish things have been said in support of both sides.
We must choose our words wisely.
Max
Even though I am KJVO, I will say that some on my side of this issue have done a great diservice to it. I would half to agree with icthus on the comment with regard to the underlying texts, but that doesn't excuse the KJVO crowd for some of the stupid things that get said.
I would also say that it goes both ways...when you get right down to it, men are agenga motivated. Its difficult to subdue the old flesh when the battle rages. Stupid and foolish things have been said in support of both sides.
We must choose our words wisely.
Max
Frank Betz: I've noticed when mv proponents are put to the test, their delineation and attacks on the KJB are exposed, their insiduous comments are confronted, that somehow the "topic" gets "CLOSED".
The evidence shows quite the opposite. When asked about the KJVO myth's LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, all I've seen from YOU and some other KJVOs is SPIN. You gentlemen simply WILL NOT admit the truth...that the KJVO myth has absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, by even the faintest implication.
Our "attacks" upon the KJV are for the purpose of destroying the "KJV is perfect" part of the KJVO myth.
Speaking of "putting to the test"...I asked you this: You've hollered about false versions of the Bible? OK, let's take JUST ONE MV...the NKJV. Now, prove it's false. If ya can, we can move to another. Try to build your case one block at a time.
Here's yer chance to shine. Have at it, ole bean!
Now, let's see how your buddies did on their tests:
I pointed out TWICE to Psalm 145 3 that the "seven church ages" doctrine was false, and gave the sources for it...and asked for SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT. His reply...DEAFENING SILENCE.
In a May 29 post in the "apostasy" thread, David J asked him, "Which KJV edition is perfect?" with quotes of the same verse from various KJV editions. Psalm's reply? DEAFENING SILENCE!
Now, we have Carlaimpinge, another paragon of erudition such as you are. Like Psalm and you, he MENTIONS apostasy in the MVs, but fails to provide the first quark of proof to back his accusations.
He said:So you KNOW the King James Bible IS NOT the word of God?
To which I replied: Never said that...please cut-n-paste any post of mine from any board where I say the KJV is NOT the WOG...or be labeled a **liar** by everyone else here.
His reply? < >
All we've seen is LIP SERVICE from the KJVO side....NOT ONE PEEP OF EVIDENCE!
Here are some of the questions which I've asked you, Psalm, and Carl in the "aposrasy' thread, which NONE of you have made the slightest attempt to answer:
Then exactly what DO you mean? Can you PROVE the KJV is inspired and no other English version is? We're anxiously awaiting your evidence.
Still avoiding the "seven church ages" thingie, I see. Why not simply admit it's false, that we all make mistakes, and that was one of yours, and that you're dumping it as of now?(FOURTH request for this one!)
Carl, I see from your site that you're KJVO. How can you justify believing that myth without any Scriptural support from the KJV itself?
Wanna prove me wrong? Then simply post some Scripture that supports KJVO by implication...or by any means whatsoever. Surely a rocket scientist such as yourself can prove this lil ole steelworker wrong.
Care to try to prove God turned His back on English after 1611?
You said, to Roger: That is why you demand the KJB be referred to as the "KJV" for version. Thus "KJV" is in itself an attack on the KJB.
Roger later asked you to provide PROOF for that statement. Before I read Roger's reply, I said:
Please post any proof for such a charge. I say "KJV" because that's exactly what the KJV is...a VERSION. Wanna try to prove that statement wrong? ya aint done so hot at proving anything else, so ya might as well flop at this one also.
Here's yer big chance to redeem your credibility, Frank! Please try to answer those questions! Psalm & Carl, feel free to chime in also! AND DON'T FORGET TO TRY TO PROVE THE NKJV FALSE!
Also, gentlemen, feel free to ask me what you will, even before trying to answer the above questions. As every veteran of this board knows, I do not dodge answering. You might not LIKE my answers, but that's just tuff. Unlike the KJVO, I can back up my answers.
That's enuff for now. Roger, I know you're hankering to close this thread because all it is, is a simple ad-hominem attack to try to compensate for their cluelessness, but will you leave it open to see if Frank, Psalm, or Carl care to respond to my questions? Their failure to do so will reveal their characters to the rest of the readership. And, as a former cop, I wanna see how, in the USA (or Eire) a person can be guilty because someone simply says he is, until proven innocent.
Humph!
Most likely your answers to the above.
I believe I've shown WHO meets challenges & answers questions, & WHO spins more than a roomful of tops.
The evidence shows quite the opposite. When asked about the KJVO myth's LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, all I've seen from YOU and some other KJVOs is SPIN. You gentlemen simply WILL NOT admit the truth...that the KJVO myth has absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, by even the faintest implication.
Our "attacks" upon the KJV are for the purpose of destroying the "KJV is perfect" part of the KJVO myth.
Speaking of "putting to the test"...I asked you this: You've hollered about false versions of the Bible? OK, let's take JUST ONE MV...the NKJV. Now, prove it's false. If ya can, we can move to another. Try to build your case one block at a time.
Here's yer chance to shine. Have at it, ole bean!
Now, let's see how your buddies did on their tests:
I pointed out TWICE to Psalm 145 3 that the "seven church ages" doctrine was false, and gave the sources for it...and asked for SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT. His reply...DEAFENING SILENCE.
In a May 29 post in the "apostasy" thread, David J asked him, "Which KJV edition is perfect?" with quotes of the same verse from various KJV editions. Psalm's reply? DEAFENING SILENCE!
Now, we have Carlaimpinge, another paragon of erudition such as you are. Like Psalm and you, he MENTIONS apostasy in the MVs, but fails to provide the first quark of proof to back his accusations.
He said:So you KNOW the King James Bible IS NOT the word of God?
To which I replied: Never said that...please cut-n-paste any post of mine from any board where I say the KJV is NOT the WOG...or be labeled a **liar** by everyone else here.
His reply? < >
All we've seen is LIP SERVICE from the KJVO side....NOT ONE PEEP OF EVIDENCE!
Here are some of the questions which I've asked you, Psalm, and Carl in the "aposrasy' thread, which NONE of you have made the slightest attempt to answer:
Then exactly what DO you mean? Can you PROVE the KJV is inspired and no other English version is? We're anxiously awaiting your evidence.
Still avoiding the "seven church ages" thingie, I see. Why not simply admit it's false, that we all make mistakes, and that was one of yours, and that you're dumping it as of now?(FOURTH request for this one!)
Carl, I see from your site that you're KJVO. How can you justify believing that myth without any Scriptural support from the KJV itself?
Wanna prove me wrong? Then simply post some Scripture that supports KJVO by implication...or by any means whatsoever. Surely a rocket scientist such as yourself can prove this lil ole steelworker wrong.
Care to try to prove God turned His back on English after 1611?
You said, to Roger: That is why you demand the KJB be referred to as the "KJV" for version. Thus "KJV" is in itself an attack on the KJB.
Roger later asked you to provide PROOF for that statement. Before I read Roger's reply, I said:
Please post any proof for such a charge. I say "KJV" because that's exactly what the KJV is...a VERSION. Wanna try to prove that statement wrong? ya aint done so hot at proving anything else, so ya might as well flop at this one also.
Here's yer big chance to redeem your credibility, Frank! Please try to answer those questions! Psalm & Carl, feel free to chime in also! AND DON'T FORGET TO TRY TO PROVE THE NKJV FALSE!
Also, gentlemen, feel free to ask me what you will, even before trying to answer the above questions. As every veteran of this board knows, I do not dodge answering. You might not LIKE my answers, but that's just tuff. Unlike the KJVO, I can back up my answers.
That's enuff for now. Roger, I know you're hankering to close this thread because all it is, is a simple ad-hominem attack to try to compensate for their cluelessness, but will you leave it open to see if Frank, Psalm, or Carl care to respond to my questions? Their failure to do so will reveal their characters to the rest of the readership. And, as a former cop, I wanna see how, in the USA (or Eire) a person can be guilty because someone simply says he is, until proven innocent.
Humph!
Most likely your answers to the above.
I believe I've shown WHO meets challenges & answers questions, & WHO spins more than a roomful of tops.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Amazing -and this from the man who believes that all he has to do is make a charge and those charged are guilty until they prove their innocence!
If the other mods agree I am open to making an exception and letting it run for a while
The sooner that KJVo folks realize that the KJV will have to be replaced at some point with another translation, the better off they will be. The English language has always changed, and it will change again. I believe that when it becomes absolutley necessary, conservative and fundamental men of scholarship will come together and produce another Bible in the "vulgar tongue" of the people (as the Westminster confession puts it). Are at that point yet? I do not believe so. Are any of the current English versions suitable replacements? I do not believe so.
Please take this theory how ever you like, it is only my opinion. I just get frustrated by KJVO folks because those of us who are KJV/TR preferred often get painted into KJVO crowd. I will always love the KJV, but I recognize that it is a translation; a good one in which I believe I can see the providence of God in production and propigation, but a translation that will run its course and ultimately be replaced as the language changes. I believe that if/when that time comes God will move and somebody will translate from the TR again. Of course, Christ could return and make this theory completely moot.
Chad
Please take this theory how ever you like, it is only my opinion. I just get frustrated by KJVO folks because those of us who are KJV/TR preferred often get painted into KJVO crowd. I will always love the KJV, but I recognize that it is a translation; a good one in which I believe I can see the providence of God in production and propigation, but a translation that will run its course and ultimately be replaced as the language changes. I believe that if/when that time comes God will move and somebody will translate from the TR again. Of course, Christ could return and make this theory completely moot.
Chad
Anti-Alexandrian
Member
Well,the 200+ conflicting Alexandrian forgeries sure hasn't done it yet!
4His_glory
New Member
I have never seen anyone attack the KJV. Just because it is not a persons version of preferance does not mean they are attacking it.
KJVO people have created this "consipiracy theory" that there is this great effort by the part of all modern translators to destroy God's Word.
C4K- I agree with Robycop, let's keep this thread open a while longer, just to see the response(s).
ROBYCOP-Thanks for saying what the vast majority of us think about the "hit 'n run" tactics of the KJVO crowd. Not hard to tell that you were a good cop,you seek evidence-report it accurately-and don't tolerate evasions.
ROBYCOP-Thanks for saying what the vast majority of us think about the "hit 'n run" tactics of the KJVO crowd. Not hard to tell that you were a good cop,you seek evidence-report it accurately-and don't tolerate evasions.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Easy for you and Roby to say FOG - I'm the one being called an apostate
.
.PASTOR MHG- Max my friend I agree 100% with what you said. When people throw mud, everybody gets dirty and nobody proves anything. Both sides have made assertions/comments that did more harm then good to their cause. I'll listen to both sides, but I will NEVER support an attack on the Word of God, whatever the version. Rob
ROGER- If I've given you that impression that I don't support your views then I sincerely apologize. I have read your posts, and agree with them. You are self-controlled, and even though you have the authority you don't weld it with an iron glove. All I was trying to say was that I am sick of the "fringe element" who want to knock other opinions down. All sides have "fringe elements" and all they do is hurt themselves. Keep up the good work Roger, I respect your opinions and hold them in high regard. Rob
MARANATHA!!!
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
No I understand fully Rob. I apprecaite your apology but it was not necessary - I don't think I have ever been called an apoastate until the other day. And by someobody who uses the same Bible I use
BTW, I would not tolerate that kind of name calling if directed at anyone other then me. It is technically in violation of BB policy.
I agree with Pastor MHG.
When it comes right down to it, the "extremists" have this habit of putting one's foot in one's mouth. And then everyone around them gets overwhelmed with the odor.
I think this whole mess got started by some wacko clown who made a stupid charge-> offended a brother in Christ-> the flesh of both sides took it and ran-> now we got BOTH sides acting like school yard children.
Concerning Ps145, Carl, and Frank -> "crikets"
And then someone says "SEE! The KJVo's can't or won't answer!"
Which really doesn't help at all. Does it?
In HIS service;
Jim
When it comes right down to it, the "extremists" have this habit of putting one's foot in one's mouth. And then everyone around them gets overwhelmed with the odor.
I think this whole mess got started by some wacko clown who made a stupid charge-> offended a brother in Christ-> the flesh of both sides took it and ran-> now we got BOTH sides acting like school yard children.
Concerning Ps145, Carl, and Frank -> "crikets"
And then someone says "SEE! The KJVo's can't or won't answer!"
Which really doesn't help at all. Does it?
In HIS service;
Jim
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Sadly though Jim, extremists on both sides make this same statement
. This type is thread is not the norm. I have decided to let it run to try and clear the air a bit.
Well,the 200+ conflicting Alexandrian forgeries sure hasn't done it yet! </font>[/QUOTE]I am not talking about new manuscripts, i am talking a new translation into the language of the people. I can guarantee that in another 75-100 years if Christ tarries, the language of not only the 17th century, but even more modern than that will begin to become obsolete. I do not expect in my lifetime to ever have to switch from the KJV, but I expect that POSSIBLY my children's children will (should I be blessed to have grandchildren someday
Chad
Chad
C4K: Easy for you and Roby to say FOG - I'm the one being called an apostate
We, too, asked for proof. Far as I'm concerned, those gentlemen have given off nothing but hot air. Thus, I repeated some unanswered questions from the closed "apostasy" thread to give those KJVOs the opportunity to defend their claims with REAL EVIDENCE. The premise for the KJVOs is simple...PUT UP, or bear the label of LIAR, by their own actions or inactions.
We, too, asked for proof. Far as I'm concerned, those gentlemen have given off nothing but hot air. Thus, I repeated some unanswered questions from the closed "apostasy" thread to give those KJVOs the opportunity to defend their claims with REAL EVIDENCE. The premise for the KJVOs is simple...PUT UP, or bear the label of LIAR, by their own actions or inactions.