When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

[JonC]

NOT what I meant. Satan, in Eden before Adam, was jealous against Adam who came to Eden after Satan and received dominion that Satan thought belonged to him. This fits the pattern set forth in scripture.

I disagree thos fits the pattern of Scripture. I could say the exact same of pride (and probably provide even more examples in the Bible).

In Scripture I do not see that Satan became jealous of Adam and Eve. I do not see a passage stating that Satan thought dominion over the Garden of Eden belonged (or should have belonged) to him.

You could be correct, but that is speculation.

 

[percho]

Greetings to you percho. Peace and hope to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Genesis 3 are based on your quote of 1John 3:8. Is John not referring to something in the Scripture that his Jewish readers would recognize? Like maybe the story of Genesis chapter 3?

Peace to you brother

My thoughts are; On the earth the darkness of this age and the god of this age are present here; And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. From Gen 1:2

And on the earth, out of that darkness, God spoke Light to shine. Sin and death are already here and God is about to bring about the foundation of the world [ Kosmos ] into which Adam will bring that sin and death and through the death God will destroy the devil and his works. Heb 2:14 1 John 3:8

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings to you percho. Thank you for your reply and blessings to you and yours.

And on the earth, out of that darkness, God spoke Light to shine. Sin and death are already here and God is about to bring about the foundation of the world [ Kosmos ] into which Adam will bring that sin and death and through the death God will destroy the devil and his works. Heb 2:14 1 John 3:8

If I understand you correctly, then you hold the Gap-theory. A theory that my post #55 would affect (or be counter too).

The conclusion of my study of the gap-theory up to this point, in the attempt to discover God's word on the matter, is that the gap-theory has many analysis errors. To many errors, imo, to consider as even being possibly true. Let alone the fact that the biblical text gives us a first act of rebellion and a first curse of Satan.

One of those errors, again imo, is the analysis about "darkness" in Genesis 1:2.

Gap-Theory Argument: Throughout scripture, darkness symbolizes evil, sin and spiritual blindness.

Although this might be true, the above, that "darkness" is sometimes used as these symbols when put into context of such. I underline the "when put in context of such" because the context of Genesis 1:1-1:2 gives us no such context.

The Holy Scripture also says God created darkness... "I form the light and create darkness" (Isa 45:7). God also "made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him where dark waters" (Psa 18:11) and that "He would dwell in the thick darkness" (1King 8:12).

In ancient Jewish tradition the night was blessed and was designed by God to bring rest. As can be seen in such verses like Psalm 104:20-24 where the psalmist praises God for creating darkness; "You make darkness, and it is night,...24 O LORD, how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all."

In all the cases I have presented, "darkness" is not represented how the Gap-theory suggests. It is a creation. Not surprisingly, Genesis 1:1-2 is about creation. Therefore any appeal to term "darkness" in Genesis 1:2 as somehow being consistent with evil in the rest of the Scripture would seem to have no weight.

The problem for the Gap-theory is, it then must rely on other data, and the Gap-theory does attempt to provide other data. But then that other data has its own errors when put under scrutiny. I'd love to talk about that other data if you would like to present it.

And again, that's searching for secret data after the fact that God already gives a first recorded act of rebellion and first curse of Satan.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings

My questions were not intended to express either that there is or there isn't doctrinal or practical significance to this question. I am interested to see if you have anything directly from Scripture that you think pertains to whether there is any such significance.

Oops. An actual question of request. My bad, as they say.

As for guarding against false information and doctrine, I am not following how establishing specifically when Satan fell helps us know sound doctrine about the other matters that you mention.

Gotcha. I'm assuming you agree that guarding against false doctrine as it relates to what the Bible says is in-and-of-itself sufficient. Although sometimes that false doctrine may not affect the underlying salvation aspect of the gospel. It would affect the spiritual growth of those already in the body. If nothing else, by wasting precious communion time with God studying something false.

We all should continually flush out those things that we believe, that are false.

Have to run off to church, but here is a couple.

1. It contradicts Romans 5:12: the Bible says that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). The Gap-Theory requires an extended period of time before Adam and Eve's sin of suffering, carnivorous behavior (they often claim this is when the dinosaurs lived), disease, and death (often claim a global flood before the Noah flood).

2. If the fossil record represents the ruins of Satan's pre-Adam kingdom...death is not the "last enemy" caused by human sin (1 Cor 15:26).

3. It would contradict Genesis 1:31 that everything was "very good". Did God create a perfectly good world, or not?

Gotta go. sorry, the last part is rushed.

Peace

 

[kyredneck]

In Scripture I do not see that Satan became jealous of Adam and Eve.

Do you see that God put ENMITY between the Serpent and the Woman?

 

[Ben1445]

Do you see that God put ENMITY between the Serpent and the Woman?

That was afterwards, not causative.

 

[kyredneck]

That was afterwards, not causative.

'Causative' of what?

The OP question: When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

Have you given your opinion?

I gave mine:

Satan 'fell' by orchestrating 'the fall'.

 

[JonC]

Do you see that God put ENMITY between the Serpent and the Woman?

Yes - between the Serpent and the woman and her Seed. He will "crush" His heel and He will crush the Serpent's head. (Genesis 3...I can't recall the verse number).

 

[kyredneck]

Yes - between the Serpent and the woman and her Seed. He will "crush" His heel and He will crush the Serpent's head. (Genesis 3...I can't recall the verse number).

Genesis Chapter 3

15​	and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Strong's Concordance H342​

Original Word: אֵיבָהTransliteration: ʼêybâhPhonetic Spelling: ay-baw'from H340; hostility; emnity, hatred.

You think that 'jealousy' could possibly be the source of that hostility?

 

[Ben1445]

'Causative' of what?

The jealousy of Satan towards man.

The OP question: When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

Have you given your opinion?

I gave mine:

I haven’t got one because I don’t think it changes anything or even makes a difference to any doctrine. If you can explain what difference it does make I might be interested in changing my opinion.
My opinion is more like I’ve decided not to have one. But that doesn’t mean I can’t take interest in other people’s opinions or point out what I think is getting the sequence of events out of order.


But you spoke of jealousy being the cause of Satan’s provoking people to sin.

Satan, in Eden before Adam, was jealous against Adam who came to Eden after Satan and received dominion that Satan thought belonged to him.

Pardon me if I assume too much of your statement. It appears to be a logical conclusion derived from your statement.

And when,

In Scripture I do not see that Satan became jealous of Adam and Eve. I do not see a passage stating that Satan thought dominion over the Garden of Eden belonged (or should have belonged) to him.

Do you see that God put ENMITY between the Serpent and the Woman?

I just mentioned that this is after the fall and not a cause for Satan’s coming to provoke the fall.

Im just reading. And as I read, it seemed to me that there was too much significance placed on something happening after the fall as being relied on for a cause of Satan’s actions before the fall.

In the context of the conversation, I miss any significance of anything after the fall of man because Satan by this point has fallen, at the very latest, with man. So anything after seems irrelevant to the topic.
Correct me if I’m wrong, or tell me where I didn’t follow the conversation well.

 

[Ben1445]

Genesis Chapter 3

15​	and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Strong's Concordance H342​

Original Word: אֵיבָהTransliteration: ʼêybâhPhonetic Spelling: ay-baw'from H340; hostility; emnity, hatred.

You think that 'jealousy' could possibly be the source of that hostility?

That would mean that God created the jealousy/envy (=corruption) in Satan. God said “I will put enmity…”
If the jealousy is the source it sounds like God is the author of corruption before the fall of man.
It is not good logic or moral description of God.

 

[kyredneck]

That would mean that God created the jealousy/envy (=corruption) in Satan. God said “I will put enmity…”
If the jealousy is the source it sounds like God is the author of corruption before the fall of man.
It is not good logic or moral description of God.

You CDS types are all the same. In no way, shape, fashion, or form does “I will put enmity” make God the author of sin. Satan ALREADY had iniquity in him.

The jealousy of Satan towards man.

...arose from the iniquity that was ALREADY in him. The placement of Adam in Eden and giving him dominion over it caused Satan's jealousy/enmity/hostility.

 

[kyredneck]

@Ben1445

Satan's seed was 'provoked to jealousy' against a 'foolish nation born in a day'. Does that make God the author of the persecution of His church?

Deuteronomy Chapter 32

21​	They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

17 When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27

1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them,
2 being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4

16 And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5

5 But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17

 

[JonC]

Genesis Chapter 3

15​	and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Strong's Concordance H342​

Original Word: אֵיבָהTransliteration: ʼêybâhPhonetic Spelling: ay-baw'from H340; hostility; emnity, hatred.

You think that 'jealousy' could possibly be the source of that hostility?

Many things could be the root of hostility. Jealousy, pride... even evil if the Serpent is viewed as evil the Seed is viewed as good.


I get what you are saying. I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying we cannot be dogmatic about it.

It could also be that Satan and 1/3 of the angels waged war in heaven and were cast out prior to Adam's sin, Satan sought to destroy God's image He created in man, and Satan became the adversary of men.

I can see it either way, but since Scripture does not specify and, since it has no bearing on doctrine, it is not a topic that occupies my thoughts.

 

[percho]

Greetings


Oops. An actual question of request. My bad, as they say.


Gotcha. I'm assuming you agree that guarding against false doctrine as it relates to what the Bible says is in-and-of-itself sufficient. Although sometimes that false doctrine may not affect the underlying salvation aspect of the gospel. It would affect the spiritual growth of those already in the body. If nothing else, by wasting precious communion time with God studying something false.

We all should continually flush out those things that we believe, that are false.

Have to run off to church, but here is a couple.

1. It contradicts Romans 5:12: the Bible says that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). The Gap-Theory requires an extended period of time before Adam and Eve's sin of suffering, carnivorous behavior (they often claim this is when the dinosaurs lived), disease, and death (often claim a global flood before the Noah flood).

2. If the fossil record represents the ruins of Satan's pre-Adam kingdom...death is not the "last enemy" caused by human sin (1 Cor 15:26).

3. It would contradict Genesis 1:31 that everything was "very good". Did God create a perfectly good world, or not?

Gotta go. sorry, the last part is rushed.

Peace

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; from Heb 2:6,7


Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

Why did God make him, Adam, a little lower than the Angels?

Was it foreordained before Genesis 1:2 that Christ would shed his precious blood? Does shed blood, mean die the death?

Again why did God make Adam the figure of him to come a little lower than the angels?

Never mind when the devil sinned. How before the foundation of the world was God going to destroy him who had the power of the death, that is the devil?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Is man redeemed by the death, shed blood and is it not through that same death, shed blood, that the devil is destroyed.

Foreordained? What brings death?

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445

Satan's seed was 'provoked to jealousy' against a 'foolish nation born in a day'. Does that make God the author of the persecution of His church?

Deuteronomy Chapter 32

21​	They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

17 When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27

1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them,
2 being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4

16 And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5

5 But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17

But that has nothing to do with Satan.

But I’ll give you that envy follow corruption.
So do you consider the fall as the moment of corruption or the moment of being removed from heaven or the garden or earth or whatever variation of Satan was the boss you believe in.

Also, a while back, you mentioned that Satan is like our jealous big brother. I don’t really care how much hyperbole you are inserting, that’s a bit too much Joseph Smith for my theology.

 

[Ben1445]

You CDS types are all the same. In no way, shape, fashion, or form does “I will put enmity” make God the author of sin. Satan ALREADY had iniquity in him.

I can’t help it that your DCS predisposes you to be turned about with every wind of doctrine. It does seem like you hyper collect some doozies.

...arose from the iniquity that was ALREADY in him.

Do you see that God put ENMITY between the Serpent and the Woman?

Well which was it??
Did it arise from the iniquity that was ALREADY in him, or
did God put the enmity there.

You have said both. Pick one.

The placement of Adam in Eden and giving him dominion over it caused Satan's jealousy/enmity/hostility.

This is exactly what I am talking about.

The placement of Adam and Eve happened before God said that He would put enmity between them.
So then you have the enmity being the cause of Satan tempting Man?
You have a big circle here that never lets us finish chapter 3.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Gotcha. I'm assuming you agree that guarding against false doctrine as it relates to what the Bible says is in-and-of-itself sufficient. Although sometimes that false doctrine may not affect the underlying salvation aspect of the gospel. It would affect the spiritual growth of those already in the body. If nothing else, by wasting precious communion time with God studying something false.

We all should continually flush out those things that we believe, that are false.

Have to run off to church, but here is a couple.

1. It contradicts Romans 5:12: the Bible says that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). The Gap-Theory requires an extended period of time before Adam and Eve's sin of suffering, carnivorous behavior (they often claim this is when the dinosaurs lived), disease, and death (often claim a global flood before the Noah flood).

2. If the fossil record represents the ruins of Satan's pre-Adam kingdom...death is not the "last enemy" caused by human sin (1 Cor 15:26).

3. It would contradict Genesis 1:31 that everything was "very good". Did God create a perfectly good world, or not?

Gotta go. sorry, the last part is rushed.

Peace

Yes, combating false doctrine is extremely important.

I do not hold to the Gap-Theory in any way. Those comments were made by another person.

Romans 5:12 does not apply to Satan and his demons because angelic beings do not die.

Genesis 1:31 is certainly true but does it require that everything in both the invisible, immaterial world and the visible, material world were "very good" at the end of the Creation or is Gen. 1:31 only speaking of the material universe, etc.?

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings percho. Hope and grace to you brother.

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; from Heb 2:6,7


Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

Why did God make him, Adam, a little lower than the Angels?

Please excuse my lack of seeing the point to how your quote, above, has anything to do with "darkness" in Genesis 1:2. Could you explain it for me?

Was it foreordained before Genesis 1:2 that Christ would shed his precious blood? Does shed blood, mean die the death?

Again why did God make Adam the figure of him to come a little lower than the angels?

Never mind when the devil sinned. How before the foundation of the world was God going to destroy him who had the power of the death, that is the devil?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Is man redeemed by the death, shed blood and is it not through that same death, shed blood, that the devil is destroyed.

Foreordained? What brings death?

Wow, that's a lot of theology thrown into the mix. These all seem like rabbit holes that distract us from the topic of "When does the Holy Scripture tell us Satan first fell?"

Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again brother!

Yes, combating false doctrine is extremely important.

Amen!

I do not hold to the Gap-Theory in any way. Those comments were made by another person.

Gotcha. I'll log that.

Romans 5:12 does not apply to Satan and his demons because angelic beings do not die.

I'm not sure if you are providing a counter to my point of Romans 5:12 or an additional "Amen". It seems like the former. If this is the case, then it also seems to be off the mark. If you remember, I was answering the question, "what doctrine would be affected by wrongly asserting exactly when Satan fell?l". In response to this I picked an example that was prior to the garden of Eden account (the Gap-theory).

So your point that the souls of angels do not die (nor do the souls of men, btw) has nothing to do with who brought sin and death into the world. If Satan brought sin and death into the world (regardless of whether he dies or not) prior to Adam and Eve, then mankind is only the "after the fact fix", or overlay, over the devastated earth already corrupted by sin and death. This would be counter to Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:12 basically tells us that physical death entered the cosmos strictly through Adam's sin. Any pre-Edenic theory undermines this by making physical death and natural evil a baseline feature of a previous, ruined fall.

Keep seeking God's truth.