When was the RCC founded?

[JonC]

Who is the Queen of Heaven?

jeremiah 7:18

In Jeremiah, I believe this is Asherah.

But in Roman paganism it is Juno (the "mother God" of Rome). She was the patron goddess of the Roman Empire. Juno was a type of savior as a counselor to the state, a mediator. She was associated with the white lily, symbolizing purity. June is named after the goddess.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Indeed… well in our home, it’s the White Boxer named Blue.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree with you wholeheartedly in regards to traditional hymns and I know that the verse does not include the worship aspect of prayer. I do not believe that repetitious prayer was the target of Jesus directive but rather the type of prayers that were being repeated. IMHO. BTW, I have sat through countless prayer sessions in the Baptist church I grew up in where the words 'guide and direct' were applied to practically every petition and intercession over and over. I believe those prayers to be valid and not what Jesus meant in the verse either.

Interesting point. Thanks for the interaction.

 

[John of Japan]

Constantine made Christianity the official religion and banned paganism, so many pagans came into the church and were baptised, but not converted, so there were many baptised unbelievers or pagans, if you will. Just as in churches where there is infant baptism, many of those are baptised unbelievers.

Here's a minor correction. Actually, what Constantine did was make Christianity legal along with other religions. It was not made the official religion until 380.

 

[JonC]

Here's a minor correction. Actually, what Constantine did was make Christianity legal along with other religions. It was not made the official religion until 380.

Yep. That honor belongs to Theodosius.

 

[Cathode]

Makes NO difference what Ignatius or anyone else taught - its what the Bible teaches that's important
And has been stated the wine and bread are only symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

One thing to mentioned - is that if the elements were actually the blood and body of Christ - than that means is constantly being re-crucified.
But Hebrews 9:29 explains it best.

It does matter what Ignatius taught, he was Bishop of Antioch, disciple of John the Apostle, and Martyr. If people want to know what the early Church believed, then an Apostolic Father and Bishop, Martyr like Him would teach it.

The Eucharist is Jesus Himself, put me in the arena with Ignatius and those lions and I will die for that same belief. I recognised the Lord at the breaking of the bread.

You think Jesus was humble dying on the Cross for us, He was even humbler yet to be the our very food of life and grace from the Eternal Father, our daily bread.

I am witness to Jesus miracles even this past weekend in street ministry, His Life passes out from me to give Life, real life to the dead.
The “losers” and “whores “ of this life are walking in heaven because of Jesus Love and Mercy. People don’t understand.

I understand the psalm “ As the deer longs for running streams, so my soul longs for you. “ . Each day at church my heart races uncontrollably right before Holy Communion with Jesus, as each night my soul wakes me early in spontaneous prayer.
My heart and soul can not wait till I receive Jesus in the morning. It is The Lord.
It can’t be explained, I wish you knew what I knew, Jesus is real Love and Peace and Joy, but those are just words, no one can describe His Love, it’s beyond anything.
Jesus Love will kill you if He didn’t tune it down for us. You think you will burst. I asked Jesus to expand and enlarge my heart, He did, and it didn’t matter, He will still burst those limits and beyond. There is no limit to Jesus. No limit.

All that happens when when your heart is enlarged is you suffer more and you long more for dear Jesus, sweet Lord Jesus.

Jesus is burning fire when you receive Him in The Eucharist. The longing in you is fire and when those two fires meet they must blaze out to the whole of creation. It must go out, this Love must express itself, it cannot be contained by anything.

Sometimes at night you are held in complete Love by Jesus and The Father, and other nights you are cold, in pain and shivering holding the infant Jesus to keep Him warm. An idiot labourer holding Jesus the King of kings peacefully asleep in my arms all night.
Then at Communion I am no longer tired, full strength and rested and out to do His Holy Will.

As we trust and rest in Him, He trusts us and rests in us. Jesus trusts us with His Infant Self as if at Bethlehem in a manger, a feeding trough for sheep. We are the warm place for Jesus in this cold dark world, as useless as we are. He makes His home in us as we make our home in Him.

We see another world through Him because His Kingdom is not of this world. Holding Him we say that He does not belong here, but His Most Holy Loving Face says it does and surely does.

At that holy time of Communion, we hand over everything and all of our being, and know in our longing that the Lord can not fail to respond with all of Himself. Jesus never fails, Jesus never betrays.
Our hearts are created for nothing but Jesus, and only Jesus can be it’s fill.

Those who truly Love Jesus will not fail to recognise Him at the breaking of the bread.

 

[Cathode]

No. This is a misrepresentation of those writings.

For example, Ignatius did NOT teach that the bread and wine became or was made flesh and blood, but that they are flesh and blood in the context of arguing against Gnostic sects.

He held a high view of the Super, claiming that the elements were representative of "sacramentally" (rather than literally) Christ's body and blood.

"announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and the Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity" (4.18.5)


The Catholic view of the Eucharist is not the view of the Early Church. It is instead the view of the Roman mystery cults. It is pagan.

For goodness sake brother, do not call The Eucharist pagan.

The Eucharist is all that Jesus is, given in Love for us all.

I Know that it’s Jesus, I recognise the Lord. You do not understand.

People can not fathom this gift so great and the humility and condescension so great, without understanding His Love so great.

Not on this earth or eternity can man or highest angel understand how humble Jesus allowed Himself to be for us.

The Eucharist is a hot coal from The Eternal Light, an innocent babe born to us to save us in darkness each and every day.

The Eucharist is Jesus, Body Blood Soul and Divine. Truly Communion, Truly Love, Sacred Mercy and Eternal Goodness and Life in One.

The Eternal Father sent this daily bread that all those that believed in Him would Live.

“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has Eternal life, and I will raise him up on the Last Day. “

“ Does this offend you? “

Don’t be offended. Believe. It is the Lord who spoke so believe,

Only the literal understanding is offensive, but believe it anyway, because Jesus said it. Step out and believe.

Call out to The Father in all of His Mercy for your heart to finally believe.

Stand on His Word and believe.

Only Faith is the Garment to attend this Covenant Feast, to take your place, eat and drink with glad hearts.

 

[JonC]

For goodness sake brother, do not call The Eucharist pagan.

The Eucharist is all that Jesus is, given in Love for us all.

I Know that it’s Jesus, I recognise the Lord. You do not understand.

People can not fathom this gift so great and the humility and condescension so great, without understanding His Love so great.

Not on this earth or eternity can man or highest angel understand how humble Jesus allowed Himself to be for us.

The Eucharist is a hot coal from The Eternal Light, an innocent babe born to us to save us in darkness each and every day.

The Eucharist is Jesus, Body Blood Soul and Divine. Truly Communion, Truly Love, Sacred Mercy and Eternal Goodness and Life in One.

The Eternal Father sent this daily bread that all those that believed in Him would Live.

“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has Eternal life, and I will raise him up on the Last Day. “

“ Does this offend you? “

Don’t be offended. Believe. It is the Lord who spoke so believe,

Only the literal understanding is offensive, but believe it anyway, because Jesus said it. Step out and believe.

Call out to The Father in all of His Mercy for your heart to finally believe.

Stand on His Word and believe.

Only Faith is the Garment to attend this Covenant Feast, to take your place, eat and drink with glad hearts.

The Eucharist as defined by the Catholic Church is pagan.

The Catholic Church dies exactly what others do to validate their views as belonging to the Early Church. You assume a few sentences extracted from the context of an entire argument proves "they" were like you. They are not.

The Greek word (eucharistia) means thanksgiving and is an expression of thanks in remembrance. You forget that Irenaeus' language was Greek. The Catholic Church made the Eucharistia (the ordinance observed in thankful remembrance of Christ giving Himself) pagan. It was not always that way.

That is not to say that observing the Eucharistia is not a legitimate communion of Christ and the Christian. But it doesn't mean that bread and wine turn to literal flesh and blood. The significance is much more significant.

 

[Cathode]

The Eucharist as defined by the Catholic Church is pagan.

The Catholic Church dies exactly what others do to validate their views as belonging to the Early Church. You assume a few sentences extracted from the context of an entire argument proves "they" were like you. They are not.

The Greek word (eucharistia) means thanksgiving and is an expression of thanks in remembrance. You forget that Irenaeus' language was Greek. The Catholic Church made the Eucharistia (the ordinance observed in thankful remembrance of Christ giving Himself) pagan. It was not always that way.

That is not to say that observing the Eucharistia is not a legitimate communion of Christ and the Christian. But it doesn't mean that bread and wine turn to literal flesh and blood. The significance is much more significant.

Nothing is more significant than Jesus Himself come in the Flesh.

Not just for Apostolic times, but our time.

Jesus is God with us, right here and now.

Men may see only bread, but the eyes of my soul look upon His Holy Face. It is Jesus. It is the Lord.

“ Happy those who do not see, yet still believe. “

Only in believing are the scales removed, only in believing is Jesus revealed.

No disguise of The Lord works to those who believe, they see.

Holy helpless infant Jesus arms outstretched to our heart, Holy Fire, Holy Love, Holy Goodness, Holy Sweetness, Holy Peace, Holy Joy.

Once you see and embrace you can not unsee and unembrace. It is the Lord Himself.

This is the longing so long awaited that nothing on this earth can fulfil. This is our Joy this side of heaven.

Only Jesus is life.

 

[Salty]

Nothing is more significant than Jesus Himself come in the Flesh. .....

and that by itself - I fully agree!

 

[JonC]

Nothing is more significant than Jesus Himself come in the Flesh.

Not just for Apostolic times, but our time.

Jesus is God with us, right here and now.

Men may see only bread, but the eyes of my soul look upon His Holy Face. It is Jesus. It is the Lord.

“ Happy those who do not see, yet still believe. “

Only in believing are the scales removed, only in believing is Jesus revealed.

No disguise of The Lord works to those who believe, they see.

Holy helpless infant Jesus arms outstretched to our heart, Holy Fire, Holy Love, Holy Goodness, Holy Sweetness, Holy Peace, Holy Joy.

Once you see and embrace you can not unsee and unembrace. It is the Lord Himself.

This is the longing so long awaited that nothing on this earth can fulfil. This is our Joy this side of heaven.

Only Jesus is life.

I am not saying Jesus coming in the flesh is insignificant. I am saying that the Catholic Euchrast is insignificant in comparison to biblical Communion.

Jesus coming in the flesh is not something that occurs in our time. He died once, for all. He is present in a more meaningful way than Catholicism will allow.

 

[David Kent]

Actually, the word "vain" is not in the original Greek. The verse should simply say not to use repetitious prayer. (I teach Greek, so you can trust me. )


In the first place, my Baptist church is traditional, avoiding CCM. So we don't use the "7-11" pop music type of singing: 7 words 11 times. We certainly don't sing that CCM song. We sing traditional hymns which are not repetitious.

Secondly, the verse does not say "worship" but "pray." So you are off target. Singing is not the same as praying, though sometimes a hymn can have a prayer in it.

But many hymns are prayers.

 

[David Kent]

Actually, the word "vain" is not in the original Greek. The verse should simply say not to use repetitious prayer. (I teach Greek, so you can trust me. )


In the first place, my Baptist church is traditional, avoiding CCM. So we don't use the "7-11" pop music type of singing: 7 words 11 times. We certainly don't sing that CCM song. We sing traditional hymns which are not repetitious.

Secondly, the verse does not say "worship" but "pray." So you are off target. Singing is not the same as praying, though sometimes a hymn can have a prayer in it.

Our Baptist church doesn't use repetitive hymns except one I sometimes "Come ye that love the Lord and let your joys be known

We dont sing CCM.

 

[David Kent]

Here's a minor correction. Actually, what Constantine did was make Christianity legal along with other religions. It was not made the official religion until 380.

It is many years since I read this, sorry I got the wrong. I believe it was at the time of Constantine time that the Latin and Greek churches separated and when the Latin church began to be called Catholic.

Elliott, writing in the first part of the 19th century, said at the beginning of his reign you could get a simple gospel service, but in 50 years, the churches were filled with flowers and incense.
It was at that time that the Waldensians said they separated from Rome at the time of Sylvester, when the Let and Hindrance were taken out of the way. It must have been important to them as they still remembered him over 800 years later in their "Noble Lesson"

 

[Walter]

It is many years since I read this, sorry I got the wrong. I believe it was at the time of Constantine time that the Latin and Greek churches separated and when the Latin church began to be called Catholic.

Elliott, writing in the first part of the 19th century, said at the beginning of his reign you could get a simple gospel service, but in 50 years, the churches were filled with flowers and incense.
It was at that time that the Waldensians said they separated from Rome at the time of Sylvester, when the Let and Hindrance were taken out of the way. It must have been important to them as they still remembered him over 800 years later in their "Noble Lesson"

The Waldensians taught certain doctrines also held by the Catholic Church, but came into conflict with the Catholic Church by denying some of its sacraments or the manner in which they were performed; Waldensians taught the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and affirmed the necessity of priests for the offering ...

 

[Cathode]

I am not saying Jesus coming in the flesh is insignificant. I am saying that the Catholic Euchrast is insignificant in comparison to biblical Communion.

Jesus coming in the flesh is not something that occurs in our time. He died once, for all. He is present in a more meaningful way than Catholicism will allow.

It is biblical Communion, the entire purpose of the Scripture is to receive Jesus Himself in the Eucharist.

“ You search the scriptures thinking that in them you will find life, the scripture bears witness to Me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may live. “

“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks My Blood, abides in Me and I in Him “

This is Covenant Communion. This is the new Manna come down from Heaven every day to sustain us.

Jesus words stand for all time and Eternity, His flesh is real food and blood is real drink.

In obedience to Jesus Words and Faith in His Words above all else, we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood as He commanded.

“ He who eats My Flesh and drinks my Blood, has eternal life, and will raise Him up on the last day. “

“ So He who eats Me, will live because of Me “

 

[Salty]

So Catholics believe that the elements become the actual blood of Christ
It is simply a metaphor.
Jesus also said:
"I am the vine" a metaphor (John 6:35)
"I AM the Door " A Metaphor (John 10:9)

Ect, ect, ect
another poster went into much detail on this thread.

 

[Salty]

Since the same things are constantly being repeated
This thread will be closed no sooner than:

2000 GMT, 4 pm EDT, 1 pm PDT

 

[Cathode]

So Catholics believe that the elements become the actual blood of Christ
It is simply a metaphor.
Jesus also said:
"I am the vine" a metaphor (John 6:35)
"I AM the Door " A Metaphor (John 10:9)

Ect, ect, ect
another poster went into much detail on this thread.

Metaphor we understand, the rhetorical we understand.

He said THE Door, THE Vine. He did not say A Door or A Vine. Rightly do we understand Jesus speaking metaphorically here.

But not in regard to His Body and Blood.

Jesus said taking the bread in His hands “ This IS my Body “, “ This IS the cup of my Blood “

What ever Jesus says is, IS. It can not be anything other. That’s the power He has as the Truth Incarnate. Nothing like that could be said unless it is so, unless it is fulfilled.

If Jesus said something, just one thing that isn’t so, then He wouldn’t be the Word Incarnate, or the Way, Truth or Life, and Christianity would be false and our faith in vain.

It is not enough to merely hear the word, we must eat The Word Incarnate, to abide in Him and He in us. This is how we “ abide in the word “.

The whole purpose of Jesus doing this is so that He would be totally with us today, God with us, not just in Spirit, but in all Truth,

What people can not fathom I suspect, is a Love so terrifyingly stupendous that Jesus would make Himself so completely available to us this way.

 

[Salty]

So, are you saying that Jesus turns into a door the same way he turns into the elements of communion?