Where Arminians should critique Calvinism

[BobRyan]

Bob said --
God IS not Partial (Rom 2:11) but that link SHOWS the NEED in Calvinism to define God AS PARTIAL to the FEW - to the "elect".

Again - just stating the obvious.

Notice that in the quote from Romans 2 - the point IN THE TEXT Goes far beyond saying "Everyone must enter judgment" it is that WHEN God is judging EVERYONE - DURING that Judgment process -- AS He does His work with everyone - HE IS NOT partial towards the ELECT - towards the FEW of Matt 7, towards SOME but not others.

Again - this is too obvious to ignore - but I suppose we could "pretend".

Notice that the focus in Rom 2:4 is "Judged ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS". Impossible to ignore if one if paying attention to "the details" IN the text of Romans 2 for the context.

James said
************* Amen...God can and WILL judge all..even the elect. but..the elect is covered under the blood...right? did this come from the law? no..though Christ

Your circular argument is a kind of marketeering not used in the text of Romans 2. LOOK at Romans 2 and SEE that it does not use the gimmick you suggest to define "Impartial".

Your idea of a teacher that grades impartially - except that all the teachers' PETS are not to be graded using the same standard as those who are "not favored". That bogus calvinized definition of "impartial" is not used in scripture.

In fact it IS the definition of PARTIAL!

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let "the text" speak.

They are all judged "According to deeds".

They are ALL judged and it is not the "HEARERS of the law but the DOERS that WILL be JUSTIFIED".

Why treat ALL in this way?

Because "God is not partial"??

How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

It does not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Again - just stating the obvious.


Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time.

Let "the text" speak.

[/QUOTE]

Very Good idea...

1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you

judge another; for in passing

judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the

judge, are doing the very same things. 2 We know that the

judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man, that when you

judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the

judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous

judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will

render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be

judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be

justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God

judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the law,


Now right in the middle of the context "judging" you will find your text

you are right again...it is very clear. no spin needed. just context


In Christ...james

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impartiality DEFINED - means no partiality - get it?

So in the case of Person-A and Person-B -- it would be treating them both equally.

Get it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ScottJ
Sure I get it. If your interpretation and application of this scriptue is correct

Are you saying that ONLY Arminians define impartiality as BEING IMPARTIAL??</font>[/QUOTE] Bob, Is this another attempt to set up a straw man or did you not read what I wrote before you responded?

I said "interpretation and application", not definition.

Romans 2 in context is saying that God doesn't accept anyone's failure to meet the standards of the law. It is not saying that God never favors one person over another without regard to anything the person has done.

God was not impartial concerning Paul. God chose him out of all the pharisees and holy men of his time... though he was the biggest hater of Christ. The others didn't get a physical visit from Jesus.

This whole line of argument by you all is ridiculous. The text simply says that God is not partial concerning who is guilty- all are.

Are you saying that ONLY Arminians would read Romans 2 and NOTICE that it claims that God IS impartial?

No. I am saying that arminians are the ones who have need to strip the scripture of its context regardless of the fact that it does not prove universal impartiality by God while the rest of scripture clearly dispels that form of error.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Show me a "doer of the law" by Christ's standard that included the spirit of the Law as well.

He answers that notion when He answered the rich young ruler. The man had obeyed the legalistic form but not the spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

James thanks for being willing to talk about a select few details in Romans 2. Lets look at all the rest of them in the first half of the chapter -- the part you skipped over.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Rom2:
5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Further - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

Rom2:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

Rom2:
9 there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 for there is no partiality with God.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many”. He does not let us suppose that others are lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones do evil and go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.


No Partiality – for Christians –

God shows no partiality between unsaved people. (Unsaved Jews vs Unsaved Gentiles)
Acts 10:34
[ Gentiles Hear Good News ] Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

God shows no partiality in determining who goes to heaven – who is justified.
Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:10-12 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)

No partiality in God between believers.
Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

We are to SHOW no partiality.
1 Timothy 5:21
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
James 2:1
[ The Sin of Partiality ] My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.


Many are reading that section above for the first time – with eyes open to details.

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let "the text" speak.
They are all judged "According to deeds".
They are ALL judged and it is not the "HEARERS of the law but the DOERS that WILL be JUSTIFIED".
Why treat ALL in this way?
Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
It does not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Romans 2 in context is saying that God doesn't accept anyone's failure to meet the standards of the law. It is not saying that God never favors one person over another without regard to anything the person has done.

I have "alrady shown" in the "details" of my review of Romans 2 that in vs 4 God BEGINS the context - with the Gospel truth of "repentance".

He shows BOTH successes and failures in Romans 2 WITHIN that context of calling for repentance.

So far - you have ignored almost every detail explicitly identified in Romans 2.

Why?

Is this not a good chapter for you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The interesting thing here is that your system requires that God not be impartial. His favor is dependent on the "choice", "faith", or positive act of "free will" by a human being.

You are simply proving my point - Calvinists have a hard time with the word "Impartial".

THE WHOLE POINT of an impartial judge is to provide a leveling factor and then let the events decide rather than YOU forcing person-A to choose life rather than person-B.

By DEFINITION - impartiality does not allow you to favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON!

In a free will system A and B "get to decide" something OR ELSE there is nothing BUT partiality when the result is "A is identical to B but A gets selected"!!

This just isn't that hard to get.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Well Bob,

Then you're saying that God's Choice of Israel cannot be viewed as Partiality?

Why Israel and not Egypt?

 

[BobRyan]

God never claimed that His choice of Abraham to head a nation was "impartial". But He does say WHY He chose Abraham in Genesis 18

Gen 18
19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

.

And He shows WHY He continues to bless Jacob

Gen 26
4 "" I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.''

But in Romans 2 He EXPLICITLY states that He is impartial when it comes to salvation.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

my oh my.....

this sounds like wes "deed judgement" Did he get this idea off of you? Is this a staple of your "faith"?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB] James thanks for being willing to talk about a select few details in Romans 2. Lets look at all the rest of them in the first half of the chapter -- the part you skipped over.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Rom2:
5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

James
************* well we have alot of things to cover here Bob. You have opened up a whole new can of worms. No wait, make that 5 new cans. But i'm glad this came up. I now see there are deeper seeded things you believe than just your post. These things maybe beyond this one C/A forum will allow.

Bob
********************
He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

James
******** are you talking about the beama/beema seat as the deed judgement?..not sure how you spell it. bob...this beama seat is for CHRISTAINS only and is hold at another time. There is another judgement for the sinner called the GREAT WHITE THRONE Judgement


Bob
*******************
Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.


James
********what you have is Paul tell the jews they will be judged too.


Bob
************************
Further - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

James
********** yep..sounds like the wes "deed judgement" to me. Now no fun here Bob...i just need to ask.

1st...is this "deed judgement" part of your faith? Most believe there are 2 judgements..as i have stated. I had heard that others only believe in one judgement but i have never heard their arguement for this. TILL...Wes brought it up one time and i did not attack him...i just asked for more infor..to get a understanding...it went on for 3 pages...and never did correct him.

Now..i ask you...is this one judgement what you believe? I know this is beyond the scope of this tread. I just want to know.


Bob
****************
Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

Rom2:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

Rom2:
9 there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 for there is no partiality with God.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many”. He does not let us suppose that others are lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones do evil and go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.


James....
********************

I will not address what you see right above, till i know for sure where you stand on this "deed judgement" thing. I hope you understand.

BOB
*********************

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation.

James
******************
you mean when it comes to judgeing all men. Nothing about salvation here Bob. This is about mans GUILT. If you want to see a hint of salvation and election...turn to ANOTHER chapter in romans. I'll let you guess what chapter this is.


let me say this as simple and clear as i can.

works has NOTHING to do with salvation.

This passage is about deeds in a way. But deeds are the problem.

This passage is to those that had the LAW...and thought they were better then those without the law in chapter 1. This is not talking about a deed judgement. This is say..you guys had the law..and you guys are no better.

notice verse 23...Thou that makes thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest.

notice 25.....if you break the law...you are just like them.

27...

28....

Bob
********************
That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).


James.....
*******************
i see your need to pull in other passages again. twist all you want bob. the texts stands on its own.

Bob
**************
Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.


James
***************

nope..read the text and forget your other sources
i do not hide from this text.
i do not pull other text to make it fit
CONTEXT IS.......judgement. But i will say this. i do understand now where you are coming from

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Lets look at the details of Romans 2..

Who will God Judge??

In Chapter 1 Paul tells of the in lawful man..going his own way. God will judge that man. But is it all of mankind that he judges? A nation was given the law and judge others that did not have the law (greeks)..and pointed at them as unholy. Paul 1st tells why this is wrong. Also...Is Gods judgment only for the greeks? Are the jews bared from this judgment? Paul address this in chapter 2....


THEREFORE YOU have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another. For in posing as judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things that you censure and denounce.

    2We know that the judgment of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.

    3And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?

    4Or are you so blind as to trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant of the fact that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent?

******notice in 4. the law did not make the jews holy. It was there for them to see they can not do it on their own. It points them to repent of their unholyness


    5But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

    6For He will render to every man according to his works justly, as his deeds deserve:

*****he will judge the Jews and the greeks...the ones with the law..and those without

    7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing seek glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.

    8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.

******notice the contrast is not jew vs greek as the jews were saying...it is the GOOD path..vs the evil path...Gods will...mans will this is seen in 8-9 and again in 10-11

    9There will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

    10But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

******
Now the text..in context..

    11For God shows no partiality;
*************
God will judge both the jew and the greek
Both ones with the law....and those with out.
Its not about the law....the law saved no one.
Its about WORSHIP...when you worship you do the law out of love...not because we have to. “if you love me...feed my sheep. James says...you say you have faith...show me your love...that is where your faith is.


    12All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

**** again the law that many jews thought saved them..only showed they were unholy and needed Christ. God will judge them too.

    13For it is not merely hearing the Law that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified.

***** its not HEARING ONLY. when you have faith..your love of the one you place your faith in...makes you DO. Notice faith is where you find the guiltless

    14When Gentiles who have not the Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
*****
Even the Greeks should know right from wrong. Not that all men follow this. But this feeling of right from wrong placed in all mens heart...will not saved them from judgement. They too are condemned by the Law (verse 12)

    15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their decisions will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse them.

*****They too are condemned by the Law

    16On that day when, as my Gospel proclaims, God by Jesus Christ will judge men in regard to the things which they conceal their hidden thoughts.
******* yes God will judge all men

Now read the other verse. Notice how Paul jumps all over the jews for think because they have the law and then point to those without the law..(greeks)...that they need to look at themselives. Just because you have the law...doe not make you holy. God will judge you too.


**********************
    17But if you bear the name of Jew and rely upon the Law and pride yourselves in God and your relationship to Him,

    18And know and understand His will and discerningly approve the better things and have a sense of what is vital, because you are instructed by the Law;

    19And if you are confident that you [yourself] are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, and [that

    20You are] a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the childish, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--

    21Well then, you who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you teach against stealing, do you steal (take what does not really belong to you)?

    22You who say not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery [are you unchaste in action or in thought]? You who abhor and loathe idols, do you rob temples [do you appropriate to your own use what is consecrated to God, thus robbing the sanctuary and [h]doing sacrilege]?

    23You who boast in the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law [by stealthily infringing upon or carelessly neglecting or openly breaking it]?

    24For, as it is written, The name of God is maligned and blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you! [The words to this effect are from your own Scriptures.](D)

    25Circumcision does indeed profit if you keep the Law; but if you habitually transgress the Law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    26So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be credited to him as [equivalent to] circumcision?

    27Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the Law will condemn you who, although you have the code in writing and have circumcision, break the Law.

    28For he is not a [real] Jew who is only one outwardly and publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical.

    29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.
************************


Awww yes...the details. It is very clear when you look at the details.

This passage is saying..the jews are not off the hook...but will be judge by God just as those in chapter 1.

Please don't confuse Bob with Context and Details of Scripture. You ruin his system of proof texting.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
God never claimed that His choice of Abraham to head a nation was "impartial". But He does say WHY He chose Abraham in Genesis 18

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Gen 18
19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

.

And He shows WHY He continues to bless Jacob

Gen 26
4 "" I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.''

But in Romans 2 He EXPLICITLY states that He is impartial when it comes to salvation.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So when the Bible says in Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.... that must mean:

A. God Chose Israel above all other nations.
B. God did not Choose Israel above all other Nations.

The correct answer is A.

Therefore that must mean that:

A. God is Partial to Israel.
B. God flipped a coin and Israel won.
C. Israel exercised its collective free will and chose God.

Well it can't be C because there is no Biblical support of such a position. It can't be B because it was a God thing and not Chance. It must be A.

God is partial to Israel because He chose them above all other nations - not because of any merit on their part but because God was pleased to choose them for his purpose(s).

Now you can call it impartiality all you want to, but it is clearly Partiality or as the Bible defines it ELECTION.

 

[BobRyan]

The "point remains" God never claims that the roles of priesthood or spiritual leadership or spiritual gifts are given out "impartially".

RATHER we see in 1Cor 12 that the Spirit gives out these roles/ministries to each one "as HE WILLS".

NOTHING is said there about an impartial distribution of all gifts roles ministries to all people.

NOR do we find such a theme in the OT.

(But then of course this is all "inconvenient details" for those trying to obfuscate and misdirect the clear teaching of Rom 2:11 by dragging in these other ideas -- eh?)

In any case - you already knew all this - so nothing new here.

I guess I only bring it up to point out that the trick for misdirection away from the clear point of Rom 2:11 is not really working.

(And of course - I have already raised this same point in my previous post- the one you quote but then ignore in your post above).

BTW - why do you use that kind of approach? It is confusing to me that you would think of doing such a thing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Bob you have a number of verse you hold to...and kick out the rest.

Thanks God I have a faith that can take hold of the whole bible and not run from some of it

now that is the details..the facts...the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
God never claimed that His choice of Abraham to head a nation was "impartial". But He does say WHY He chose Abraham in Genesis 18

Gen 18
19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

.

And He shows WHY He continues to bless Jacob

Gen 26
4 "" I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.''

But in Romans 2 He EXPLICITLY states that He is impartial when it comes to salvation.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
]So when the Bible says in Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.... that must mean:

A. God Chose Israel above all other nations.

As already noted - selection for "ministry" is according to 1Cor 12 "gives to each one individually as HE wills" this is NOT the claim made about SALVATION "by contrast" in Romans 2:11-13.

The point "remains".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
[QB] Bob you have a number of verse you hold to...and kick out the rest.

Thanks God I have a faith that can take hold of the whole bible and not run from some of it

If only I could get the Calvinists here to pay attention to the scriptures listed instead of glossing over them in post after post.

I raise the points - and they are simply ignored.

How is that supposed to be a "compelling form of response"??

What logic is used to defend such tactics?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James said --
Now read the other verse. Notice how Paul jumps all over the jews for think because they have the law and then point to those without the law..(greeks)...that they need to look at themselives. Just because you have the law...doe not make you holy. God will judge you too.

This point of the "failing case" was made repeatedly in my post SHOWING how God condemned some of the Jews and ALSO some of the Gentiles based on that IMPARTIAL test used (as noted IN the TEXT).

BUT I ALSO paid ATTENTION to the DETAILS of the SUCCESSFUL cases (the ones that you gloss over in BOTH Jews and Gentiles) IN the TEXT!

I ALSO paid ATTENTION to the MECHANISM/Principle/Model that GOD declares He is using in Romans 2 - to GET that outcome of SOME saved and some lost. (the detail you ALSO choose to gloss over).

Your response takes the form of ONLY admitting to ONE of the details and then GLOSSING OVER the rest!!

How in the world do you think that repeatedly ignoring the VERY DETAILS I highlight in the TEXT is going to make it "appear" that you are admitting to them???!!

You repeat that same tactic as IF it is a compelling form of reason, debate, logic, response.

Why do that?

Why not advance your argument instead?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In your post you pretend to have interest in some other verses of Romans 2 going beyond vs 13.

I take that as 'genuine interes' and will post on that most devastating (to Calvinism) section of Romans 2 as well.

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let "the text" speak.

They are all judged "According to deeds".
They are ALL judged and it is not the "HEARERS of the law but the DOERS that WILL be JUSTIFIED".

Why treat ALL in this way?
Because "God is not partial"??

How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

It does not.
=======================================================================================================

Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Luke 12:
47“and that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Romans2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

Romans2:
14for when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a Law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

John Macarthur. "God holds all men responsible for their refusal to acknowledge what He has shown them of Himself in His creation. Even those who have NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE GOSPEL have received a clear witness about the existence and character of God- and have suppressed it. If a person will respond to the revelation he has, even if it is solely natural revelation, God will provide some means for that person to hear the gospel." Macarthur Study Bible pg. 1693

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

Rom 2
:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

=========================================

Rom 2:16 the Jew is condemned by the Law
17 but if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know his will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 you who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 you who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24for “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Notice the contrast between those that repent and persevere in doing good, and those that cause God's name to be blasphemed! It is a contrast based on what they “practice” relative to the Ten Commandments from which Paul quotes.

This is not a chapter claiming that all Jews cause God to be blasphemed. It is not a chapter declaring that all Jews have not repented. (Paul and the Apostles are Jews) It is not a chapter declaring that no Jews are saved in the judgment.

Rather it points to both the rebellion blasphemer on the one hand and the persevering and repentant on the other.

Rom2:
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
[/ quote]

Paul shows us that the “Difference” between the truly circumcised of heart and those who are not – is in the “practice”. (Back to “Not the HEARERS of the Law are Just but the DOERS of the Law WILL be Justified”)

Or is this Paul saying "yeah but since that never happens - what am I talking about? I must have lost my mind. ". No, Paul is not using fiction as an argument for making his case! Rather he uses REAL examples from the REAL Ten Commandments!

Rom 2: 27and he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly,

Lets look at the "details".

#1. Paul lists individual commandments -- Adultery, stealing, idolatry... This can not be denied.

#2. Paul argues that the uncircumcised Gentiles are in some cases obeying and the Jews are in some cases in rebellion to these specific commandments taken from the Unit of Ten.

This can not be denied as we read the verses quoted above.

#3. Paul argues that TRUE circumcision will be seen in the PRACTICE not simply in LIP SERVICE and he appeals to the SUCCESSFUL example of "some" gentiles. He claims that these SUCCEEDING examples show TRUE circumcision "of the HEART" done by the Holy Spirit.

These "details" are devastating to the POV that the LAW can only be violated not obeyed!


now watch as Paul argues that these obedient = spiritual Jews do exist!

Rom 2:
28 nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The Gentiles with the Law written in the heart, the holy spirit working on the heart - this is all the succeeding - gospel case that Paul has already noted in the first of the chapter as - obtaining immortality.

It is true that Romans 2 argues that God is not partial - but the emphasis in Romans 3 that all are in need of a savior for all sin - is not a contradiction of Romans 2 - that those who repent and perservere are those that succeed in the judgment. Far from it. Romans 2 explicitly makes the point that the Gentiles are included in that succeeding case.

Now that is the main point of chapter 3!! All are in need of a savior - all must accept the offer of repentance in Romans 2 in order to obtain the immortality mentioned in chapter 2. Just as chapter two states.

The two chapters reinforce each other instead of contradicting each other.

</font>

Let us "See" how much genuine interest there really is in all the "details" of Romans 2.

This is a great chapter for pointing out the IMPARTIAL judgment of God as it obtains the outcome of some saved and some lost IT SHOWS the "BASIS" of that outcome "clearly" and "explicitly" IN the text.

How shocking for the Calvinist system confronted by Roamns 2!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

1st before i go on with this passage i ask for the 4th time....

what is your view on this "deed judgement" that you and wes talk about.

if you can not post...send me a PM.


Thanks..

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

Wait...i have read this same post 4-5 times.

do you think if you post it 100 times you are then right?

bob..you have been shown many times by me..larry johnp, RC, Oldreg...and many others that this does not work. you think that after a few days we forget what we said before??

Get a new post...write some new lines. come up with a debate that works.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
1st before i go on with this passage i ask for the 4th time....

what is your view on this "deed judgement" that you and wes talk about.

if you can not post...send me a PM.


Thanks..

In Christ..James

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is a devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

Is this what you were looking for in asking about the "deeds" mentioned in Romans 2? Did I forget any of the "deeds" you find there?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In your post you pretend to have interest in some other verses of Romans 2 going beyond vs 13.

I take that as 'genuine interes' and will post on that most devastating (to Calvinism) section of Romans 2 as well.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Here I placed a detailed review of the CONTENT of Romans 2 -- for Calvinists to ignore.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1540/6.html#000075

Let us "See" how much genuine interest there really is in all the "details" of Romans 2.

This is a great chapter for pointing out the IMPARTIAL judgment of God as it obtains the outcome of some saved and some lost IT SHOWS the "BASIS" of that outcome "clearly" and "explicitly" IN the text.

How shocking for the Calvinist system confronted by Roamns 2!</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob