Where did evil come from?

[Ronald]

Marcia

Evil came from Lucifer himself. For he is the Father of lies and deceit. Adam and Eve were once pure and holy, but Lucifer was evil before Adam and Eve. Once Adam and Eve's eyes of understanding were opened they came to know what evil was, just as they had only known what holiness was. But Satan was and is the source of all evil and not God. For holiness and righteousness is what God is. Just as what pure love is. Love is what God is.

Sin in it's true definition is falling short of all God requires of angels and men. What he requires is law. So all sin is lawlessness towards God. When you are tempted it is not of God, but of Satan. He wishes to damn your soul. God radiates with holiness and love, while Satan radiates with evil. There lies the difference.

 

[Marcia]

Ronald, I hear ya! But Lucifer was not evil to begin with. He was an angel created by God but chose to rebel against God. So that is why people are asking how did this all happen before Lucifer chose to rebel. That's what I was giving my answers to.

 

[glorybound012001]

Ronald,If what your saying is true then God made Lucifer,there for God made evil.I am beginning to think that good and evil are the natural laws of nature.Every action has a reaction.So good has evil.Maybe it is that simple.


I am really enjoying this discussion.God Bless all of you.Vince

 

[Ronald]

Marcia

Lucifer was once a powerful angel and the most beautiful of all, but evil was in HIS HEART, because he wanted to overthrow God.Yes, God originally made all the angels good, but he gave them something he did not give to Adam and Eve. The knowledge of right and wrong. Angels thus had FREE WILL to do good or not to. There were other angels who chose evil, besides Lucifer. Many came down and had sex with beautiful earth women during the age of Noah. Any disobedience towards God is sin and therefore evil.

 

[Deacon]

Thought I'd add this; found it today reading in Proverbs:

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:4

Rob

 

[Marcia]

Ronald, I think your post makes some good points.

Glorybound, I don't think it means that God created evil when he created Lucifer just because Lucifer chose to be evil. God is not the author or agent of our evil because he made us and we choose to sin.

I do disagree with the statement that angels "came down and had sex with beautiful earth women during the age of Noah," which comes from Gen. 6. That is a very disputed passage and there are about 4 interpretations of it. I tend to think that it means that the sons of the godly line had relations with the daughters of the ungodly line. I do not think angels, who are spirit creatures, can have relations with human women. They are not the same "species," so to speak.

And glorybound, I have to disagree that good and evil are the natural laws of nature. We know that when God created the world, it was good. Sin, death and decay came to earth only after man sinned.

 

[Ronald]

Marcia

In the Book of Enoch whom the bible author mentions, Enoch told how it was real angels who came down and co habited with earth women. Also Josephus a well known Jewish historian writes of the same account. The book of Enoch was highly regarded by the early church as were the letters of Clement. But the church just didn't include them in the NT canon in 380 A.d. But before that century the book of Enoch was well received. I have personally read the book of Enoch.

Bro Ron

 

[Marcia]

Well, since the book of Enoch is not in the canon, I do not accept is as the word of God. Therefore, I cannot take its account of the angels coming down to have relations with women as true.

I realize that Enoch and some other writings were highly regarded and read by the early church, but that does not mean everything they say is true or that they are the word of God.

Just thinking about it, an angel is another creature from a human. It's very mythlike to me to think of angels having relations with women -- it reminds me of the Greek myths about the gods coming down and mating with human women.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ronald - I have to agree that appealing to the Book of Enoch will not gain you points here!

But do agree with the assessment on the fallen spirits co-habiting with humans. Every culture in the world has that same story - part god-man coming down, mighty men of mythology.

There ARE four interpretations, but three are wrong. Not mine, of course!

 

[Ronald]

Bro Bob

If Jude made mention of "the book of Enoch", then this is proof positive that the book of Enoch was inspired of God and SHOULD have been included in the New Testament canon.Jude 14-15

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ronald stated:
Jude made mention of "the book of Enoch"

And Paul quoted some Cretan poet - hello? Are THEY inspired too?

Or the Book of Jasher?

Or that because I just quoted you, that means I agree with you! NO WAY!

Eat the chicken, spit out the bones. Even the most vile writings (like a garbage can) may have something of value in it.

A quotation of one concept does NOT mean unilateral endorsement. Such an argument is indefensible.

 

[HisMercy]

Many say "God didn't create evil."
The LORD says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

As for the discussion about choosing to be evil, check out what the LORD says.

Deuteronomy 29:4 "yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." Verse 21 "And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law." If you still believe in your own ability to choose, look at:
Romans 9:11-23 "(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

That pretty much says it all.

 

[Marcia]

"The LORD says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The word for evil there does not mean evil as we are discussing; it means calamity. If we look at the whole passage, it's talking about how God is sovereign over all that happens; he allows certain things to happen that are bad. Evil cannot be created since it is the absence or corruption of good.

If God is completely good, which he is, and the world was good when he created it, which it was, then there had to a corruption of that good to have evil. God did not cause that. He created Lucifer, who rebelled, but that does not make God the author of evil. He created Adam and Eve, who disobeyed, and that brought sin into the world. That does not make God the author of evil. In fact, Calvinists have no answer for how sin came to be in the Garden because of their belief that God causes everything and at the same time, their belief that God cannot cause evil.

None of those quotes show that God creates evil when read in context and in context of the whole Bible, and in context of God's attributes of absolute goodness. He gives people over to their own evil inclinations when they are no longer responding to them. Pharaoh had a chance to obey God but refused. After that, he was hardened. There some good commentaries on that. Even online at Crosswalk you can get commentaries on this.

 

[Ronald]

Bro Bob

Nope, that won't wash either Bro Bob, because Enoch said THE LORD COMETH. He was prophesying in the power of the Lord.verse 14. Enoch was not just another Greek philosopher, but one who walked with God and prophesied of what the Lord said as well. THAT'S INSPIRATION, just as much as the writings of Revelation by John the Apostle.

 

[Marcia]

Enoch as spoken of in the canon in scripture is fine but that does not mean the book of Enoch is even by him or that it is the word of God.

Scripture is God-breathed, not the people. It is only the writings that are in the Bible that are from God. Not everything they wrote is in the Bible because it is not all God-breathed. The Book of Enoch was not accepted in the canon and is not God's word.

 

[HisMercy]

Marcia,

Colossians 1:16 "for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy , O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Look at Romans 9 again. That the purpose of God might stand according to election..

In response to your comment about context. It is written in Isaiah 28:9-10 who and how God teaches doctrine. "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."

 

[Glory Bound]

The only way you could say that God "created" evil is in the fact that evil is defined due to the existence of God and His Word. By giving us the law, He therefore defined, or created, lawlessness.

God did not make any being sin, but rather created the beings with the potential to sin. Following God is a choice - not following is a choice as well. What value is there in a follower who has no other choice?

 

[Marcia]

I can agree that God permitted sin and evil for His glory, but a Holy God who cannot abide sin cannot be the author of evil. That is just not the God of the Bible. I do not think Romans 9 teaches that God creates sin but that he allows it. Verse 21 does not mean that God is making someone sin, but that he allows a sinner to be given over to the sin, which is in God's power. When he hardens someone, he has given them over to their sin. Pharoah disobeyed first, as God knew he would, and then God allowed Pharaoah to continue that way.

To give a contrast to the Biblical God, in the occult, the worldview is that good and evil (usually called light and dark) are forces in themselves and that each needs the other to exist. Everything must be balanced, so that if something good is done, then there must be a reaction on the evil (dark side) as well. One of the views regarding this is that good and evil will be swallowed up by God, who consists of both. New Ager Deepak Chopra says that God is in the evil as much as in the good.

These occult philosophies are very far from the true, righteous God who cannot abide sin and who will one day vanquish it. God does not cause people to sin but gives them over to it. God knows we will sin, and which sins we will commit, but does not cause us to commit those sins.

 

[swaimj]

There are three possible worlds which God could have created. A completely moral world in which sin is not possible (such as we will enjoy in the eternal state). An a-moral world in which sin does not exist (such as that of animals who have no morality). Or the world he actually created. That world was one in which sin was possible but had not entered in. Again, the question is "How did the evil enter in?" Did God inject the evil or did he allow the creature to inject it through an act of free will?

The difficulty is this: How can God be good if he injected the evil? How can God be sovereign if an act of free will occurred?

 

[Marcia]

Swaimj, I think you really boiled down the issue nicely!

Of course, I have no problem believing that a sovereign God allows men a limited free will (I am not Arminian and I believe in eternal security). He did not create robots. To me, sovereign does not mean he determines all my choices, but I know Calvinists believe that. That's why they have a problem with this question and I don't.

I don't think I want to get into the Calvinist/free will debate here -- I've been in that discussion for years with Calvinist friends and in discussion groups. I think that debate is also being carried on elsewhere on this Board.