OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don't see Book of Life mentioned in the above Scripture!
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Where does believing faith come from part 2
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I don't see Book of Life mentioned in the above Scripture!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
We were discussing Ephesians 1:3-6. I noted in my post that faith was an essential part of salvation. Faith is simply the gift of God. Does the above Scripture from Peter refute that truth? NO! NO!
Obviously one of us is wrong. I believe it is you. Furthermore, I have never accused you of heresy as you did me and others whom you call Calvinists.
Obviously God knew in eternity past who He was going to choose unto Salvation in Jesus Christ. He would not be God if He did not. Foreknowledge of God in election has nothing to do with God knowing who, of their own freewill, would believe or refuse to believe. If that were true He would not have foreknowledge since, according to you Arminians, He would have to wait while you shuffled your feet trying to decide whether you wanted to believe or not. Furthermore, man of his own freewill will never believe to the saving of his soul.
One further point Winman. You keep accusing those of us believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace of believing men, not the Bible. You apparently believe that you are the inerrant interpreter of Scripture. That is sheer arrogance on your part. You would do well to understand that you are not the inerrant interpreter of Scripture. Realizing this you might be inclined to read what others say about Scripture, recognizing that God may have revealed an understanding of some parts of Scripture to others that He did not choose to reveal to you.
Benefactor
New Member
So OR you have missed out on a lot of revelation according to your way of thinking. :laugh:
By not bowing to your particular interpretation of the Bible as the one and only correct view Mr. B?!
Countering with reason is one thing, but when countered with Scripture, you have no choice but submit to its teaching or explain it away. God's word does not contradict itself, nor do its truths contradict themselves.
1 Peter 1:20 clearly says that we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". I agree with you, God does not make mistakes. And God has told us here that his Election is based on something he foreknew. And I have showed you scripture that says Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe not. Therefore he also knows who will believe.
The concept you cannot grasp here is that God having foreknowledge of what will happen does not determine what will happen. If a man remains in and dies in unbelief, God knows it. But if that man at some point repents and trusts Christ, God knows that as well.
This does not violate God's sovereignty. He can still bring about his will regardless of the circumstance. I showed that before in other posts, a clear example is in Esther.
Est 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
In this story, evil Haman who hated Mordecai the Jew had convinced king Ahasuerus to pass a law allowing all the people of the land to kill the Jews on an appointed day. Mordecai requested that queen Esther go before the king on the Jews behalf.
But look what Mordecai says, he says that if queen Esther does not go before the king, "then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place". In other words, events are not locked in stone, but God can bring about his will regardless.
Now, no man can understand this, but I believe this shows that God knows all possible outcomes in advance. Did he know that queen Esther would go into the king? Yes. But what if queen Esther did not go in, would he know that? Yes. And he would have chosen someone else to deliver the Jews.
But back to the subject. God knows in advance who will believe and who will not. That is not my opinion, that is what the scriptures clearly show.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Now, I included verse 65 which is a favorite of those that argue that God imposes faith on a man. But this verse is clearly used out of context by Calvinists. Notice I highlighted the word "it". To understand this verse, you have to know what that "it" is. And if you read the whole chapter you will see Jesus is speaking of the word of God.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Here is another favorite verse used by Calvinists. But again, you cannot pull it out of context, it is explained further in the chapter.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Another favorite verse of Calvinists, but read on.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Yet another favorite verse of Calvinists. But now all of these verses are explained. The very next verse shows how God draws a man.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Here Jesus shows how a man is drawn to God. It is through the scriptures. Before a person can come to God, they have to be "taught of God". It does not say they are regenerated to believe. And Jesus says every man that has "heard and learned" of the Father, cometh unto me.
So, you are not regenerated to believe. You hear the word of God and believe, just as Romans 10:17 says.
And Jesus explains this again later in the same chapter.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Here Jesus explains that his words are spirit and they are life. To be saved, you have to receive and believe Jesus's words, the scriptures. In John it shows that Jesus himself is the Word of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
When Jesus says that no man can come to God unless it were given him of the Father, he is speaking of the scriptures, of the Word of God. Without the scriptures we would not know of God, we would not know of Jesus, and would not be able to place our faith in him. And this is what Paul says in Romans.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
So, you can't pull scripture out of context. In John chapter 6 Jesus is speaking of the scriptures, of the Word of God. This is how a man is saved, by hearing and believeing the gospel.
And to answer your last statement, I do not believe myself to the the "inerrant interpreter" of scripture. It is simply that I believe (and have shown) literally dozens of verses of scripture that contradict Calvinism. I believe that any saved person can understand the scriptures if he will ask God's help.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I always pray and ask God to help me understand the scriptures. I am fully aware that I am a fallible man and could easily make mistakes. But I take the scriptures very seriously, and also am fearful. I also pray always that I do not misrepresent the scriptures, and ask forgiveness if I have.
So, I do not have this sort of proud attitude at all, and I am being sincere.
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I'm late to the fray here, but I have to ask some questions and make some observations.
And with that, I think I've hit my limit of one soteriological post per year. See y'all in 2010 :laugh:
It seems here as if you make circumstances sovereign and not God. Can't go there with you. Unscriptural. If God is not sovereign, he is not God. It's almost deism which you seem to assert here. I give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you do not intentionally do so, as do most Arminians. But they unknowingly fall into this trap.
I've always wondered how people can say God can be omniscient but not omnipotent.
Straw man and assumes facts not in evidence.
That is an interesting interpretation, and you'd get prima facie agreement, except for trying to link it here. The periphrastic perfect passive subjunctive dedomenon doesn't appear to correlate with the words you use, at a glance. Maybe we could do some more thorough exegetical work on this. One of the limitations of English is we don't get the richness of the relationships between words that you get in the Biblical languages.
Yes. But the stark contrast between Arminians and those who hold to a Reformed view is the former believe that saving faith comes from within the hearts and minds of people, according to their will and power and "sovereignty". The latter believe what the Scriptures teach, that it is a gift from God, lest anyone boast (Eph 2:8-10).
I don't doubt your sincerity. I just disagree with your exegesis. Instead of letting texts talk, Arminians place their preconceptions over top of God's word, and suddenly man is speaking and not God's Word. Just my opinion.
This is precisely why I believe a strong Bibliology is absolutely necessary for churches, pastors, and ma and pa baptist. When we attack the veracity of God's word, deny its inspiration and inerrancy, we do so at our own peril. I know that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here, but I just can't pass up a chance to say it :smilewinkgrin:
As long as a Reformed person isn't the one showing you your misrepresentation? :laugh: Just kidding, my friend.
And with that, I think I've hit my limit of one soteriological post per year. See y'all in 2010 :laugh:
True...so how can one hold to calvinism / reformed theology knowing that?
:laugh: I know. With such blatant misrepresentations, you'd think I was an Arminian :tongue3:With such a blatant misrepresentation yourself, you may want to spend more time on soteriology
Easy.
How can one hold to Arminianism knowing that (assuming they do)?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I believe that there is a preponderance of Baptists on this Forum who deviate from Freewill Baptists only on one point. They dump on Calvinism but eagerly grab onto Calvinism's 5th point, the Perseverance of the Saints. However, if one is the author of his own salvation he may well be the author of his own damnation.
I'm not one of them. There is not much difference between the P and beliving one can lose their salvation, as both gravitate towards works salvation. I prefer preservation, not perseverance. Persevering is what we do, preservation is what God does.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You might try learning what is really meant by the Perseverance of the Saints. For your edification webdog:
1689 London Confession of Faith
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
From
http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc17.html
It's not unscriptural at all, and does not violate God's sovereignty. I showed from the book of Esther where Mordecai under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said that if Esther did not go in to king Ahusuerus on the behalf of the Jews, then God would deliver them from some other place. So the scriptures themselves show God can adapt to changing circumstances. The Marines say "adapt and overcome" and you do not believe God can do this?
Est 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
Seeing it is in the scriptures, it can hardly be unscriptural.
Who said God is not omnipotent? You inserted that, not me. And because you cannot understand something it cannot be true?
It is a proper interpretation. Jesus showed that those who come to God must be taught of God. He said those that have heard and learned of the Father come to him. I would say that is very straightforward and very easy to understand if you do not have a bias toward another explanation. Nowhere does it mention being regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe. And later Jesus explains that his words are spirit, and they are life. But you must receive them and believe them to be effectual.
1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
So, you see in 1 Thess 2:13 it shows they received the word. That is not simply audibly hearing, but believeing the word of God. You must believe the word of God for it to be effectual to the hearer. Nothing whatsoever is mentioned of the Holy Spirit regenerating a person here, only that they heard and believed, just as Romans 10:17 teaches.
I have an opinion too. I believe Calvinists ignore scripture that contradicts their doctrine to believe their own preconceptions. So what does that prove?
Who has attacked the scriptures? Where did that charge come from? I quoted scripture. I believe the scriptures to be 100% true and infallible.
Hey, you don't see me quoting men in my answers. In my observation it is Calvinists who commonly answer with quotations from men. And it is not too surprising when they agree with your personal doctrine, seeing they are fellow Calvinists. I could find those who agree with me and quote their commentaries. Doesn't prove a thing. What is important is what the scriptures say. A Roman Catholic or a Jehovah's Witness can quote a commentary. And guess what? It will agree with their personal doctrine. What a surprise!
So you think quoting a fellow Calvinist proves your doctrine is true?
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
I"ve read it...it's not inspired writing, and it is still wrong.
I notice they do not mention 1 Peter 1:2 that says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Before you can talk about election, you must first consider God's foreknowledge, because his election is based on (according to) the foreknowledge of God.
So, you must determine if possible what this foreknowledge of God is. And the scriptures show that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not. And therefore he also knows who will believe.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Now, once you understand that God elects those whom he knows will believe, then you can understand predestination.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
We are chosen or elected "in him" before the foundation of the world. This shows God's election is based on those who will trust on Christ. And it shows God knew who would believe before the foundation of the world.
And you cannot be a son of God unless you believe on Christ.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
So, for God to predestinate us unto the adoption of children "by" Jesus Christ, God had to know who would believe on Christ beforehand, which the scriptures show.
And myself, I believe in the preservation of the saints, not perserverence.
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I think that some people have a problem with the simple things in life; simple verses such as:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I think that they would rather edit that entire verse as to their brand of Calvinism, and that really is too bad.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I think that they would rather edit that entire verse as to their brand of Calvinism, and that really is too bad.
You aren't kidding. I have been saved for about 45 years now, and attended a few different Baptist churches (IFB), and I had never met anyone who believed this doctrine until I came to this forum. I always believed that "whosoever" in John 3:16 meant just that, "whosoever". That means any person at any time. But Calvinism attempts to change the definition of very simply understood words. They have to.
Whenever I hear any person or preacher say a word does not really mean what it says, I quit listening to that person.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
The above paragraph shows the roll of God in the perseverance of the believer, in effect the preservation of the believer: This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will. You really need to read more carefully webdog.
Incidentally I don't know that anyone claims the London Confession of Faith is inspired, I assume you are talking about inspiration by God. However, I would say that it is much more inspired than your writing. As in the case of others on this Forum you are not an inerrant interpreter of Scripture.
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