Where does believing faith come from part 4

[DHK]

DHK

Below are three slightly different doctrines on the ability of man regarding his own salvation that I posed to Winman. Now which of these three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation?

1. Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man's ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pelagian.htm

2. semi-Pelagianism believes that Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will takes the initiative toward God. In other words, divine grace and human free will must work together in salvation.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/semipela.htm

3. Arminianism declares that although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html


Again I ask: Which of the above three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation DHK?

Frankly there doesn't seem to be too much difference in this brief statement of each. They each state that man is ultimately sovereign in his own salvation. That is what you and Winman preach.

I believe what the Bible says OR. I didn't even take the time to read what other men believe. Why should I?
The Bible clearly says that we have peace with God because we are justified by faith, not because we are magically regenerated beforehand. I don't believe in such superstition not taught in the word of God.

The Bible commands that we: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we shall be saved." It says nothing about a magical regeneration without faith beforehand. I don't believe in your superstitions. I believe in the Bible. When the Bible says that salvation is by faith, then that is what I believe.

 

[Winman]

You show me where Jesus Christ declared that faith was a prerequisite to the New Birth and I will agree with you. But you can't. In case your version does not have the appropriate Scripture I will post them for you.

You have been shown many times, but refuse to accept what the scriptures plainly say.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Here Paul specifically asks the Galatians how they received the Spirit. Did they receive the Spirit by the works of the law? NO.

Did they receive the Spirit by hearing God's word and believing it? YES.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

How were they born again? By the word of God. But you must believe the word of God for it to profit you.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Here Peter speaks of men who heard the preaching of the gospel, the word of God. But it only profits those that believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

To whom did God give the power to become the sons of God? To those that received Jesus and believed on his name. So faith is necessary to be born again, and you do not receive the "power" unless you first believe. The power spoken of in verse 12 is the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

No one is disagreeing with you that the Holy Spirit regenerates and quickens a man and gives him eternal life.

But a person must believe on Jesus first before the Holy Spirit can quicken him. You receive the Spirit by hearing God's word and believing as shown in Galatians 3:2.

The scriptures you showed in John chapter 3 do not say one word about the Holy Spirit giving a man faith. The word faith is not even mentioned in the verses you showed. You are reading into this passage what is not there.

 

[Winman]

What the scriptures say:

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How a Calvinist understands this verse:

This only would I learn of you, received ye the hearing of faith by the works of the law, or by the Spirit?

Laugh, but that is exactly what Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers do, you turn the scriptures around 180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what they truly say.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe what the Bible says OR. I didn't even take the time to read what other men believe. Why should I?
The Bible clearly says that we have peace with God because we are justified by faith, not because we are magically regenerated beforehand. I don't believe in such superstition not taught in the word of God.

The Bible commands that we: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we shall be saved." It says nothing about a magical regeneration without faith beforehand. I don't believe in your superstitions. I believe in the Bible. When the Bible says that salvation is by faith, then that is what I believe.

There are many on this forum who would disagree with your statement that you believe what the Bible says! The Bible states:

Ephesisns 2:4, 5 NKJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

You see Scripture teaches that God, not man, is sovereign in Salvation!

 

[OldRegular]

OR, A four year old can copy and paste. We have other posters do such elementary, if not childish things. Exposition of the passage to show what it teaches is quite different. Exposition does indeed show that faith is required. Again, I am sorry for you that you don't have any understanding of this passage of Scripture. And even more so now that you make it a laughing matter.

Then exegete the passage I posted and show me where Jesus Christ states faith is a prerequisite to the New Birth. Talk about exposition just doesn't cut it.

I am not surprised that you believe posting of the Word of God is childish.

 

[OldRegular]

You have been shown many times, but refuse to accept what the scriptures plainly say.

Then show me in the passages I posted where faith is required prior to the New Birth. I did not write these. God did!

Challenge by OldRegular
You show me where Jesus Christ declared that faith was a prerequisite to the New Birth and I will agree with you. But you can't. In case your version does not have the appropriate Scripture I will post them for you.

John 3:3-8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I will even throw in a couple of additional versions.

John 3:3-8, NASB
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5. Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


John 3:3-8, NKJV
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4,.Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5. Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I see nowhere that Jesus Christ states a requirement of faith prior to the New Birth!

 

[DHK]

There are many on this forum who would disagree with your statement that you believe what the Bible says! The Bible states:

Ephesisns 2:4, 5 NKJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

You see Scripture teaches that God, not man, is sovereign in Salvation!

You are doing the same thing again. And I will repeat the same thing again.
Any four year old can copy and paste verses. That doesn't mean a thing. I agree 100% with the verses that you quoted, because I believe the Bible, as I said. In fact I even believe your conclusion. I have never said otherwise. Thus your only rebuttal is a false one.

 

[DHK]

Then exegete the passage I posted and show me where Jesus Christ states faith is a prerequisite to the New Birth. Talk about exposition just doesn't cut it.

I am not surprised that you believe posting of the Word of God is childish.

The ability to copy and paste is elementary. My four year old grand-son can do it. It doesn't take much skill to do it.
Are you unable to make sense of what you post??

 

[OldRegular]

I believe what the Bible says OR. I didn't even take the time to read what other men believe.

You claim to be a preacher and didn't take time to read what other men believe! It is the height of arrogance to believe that you alone are privy to enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.

I recall when Jimmy Swaggert publicly proclaimed that God had anointed him above all others for a certain ministry. It was not too long before God humbled him!

 

[OldRegular]

What the scriptures say:

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How a Calvinist understands this verse:

This only would I learn of you, received ye the hearing of faith by the works of the law, or by the Spirit?

Laugh, but that is exactly what Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers do, you turn the scriptures around 180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what they truly say.

The above so-called explanation is completely unintelligible!

 

[DHK]

You claim to be a preacher and didn't take time to read what other men believe! It is the height of arrogance to believe that you alone are privy to enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.

I recall when Jimmy Swaggert publicly proclaimed that God had anointed him above all others for a certain ministry. It was not too long before God humbled him!

I am interested in what the Bible says and teaches.
I am interested in what you believe the Bible says and teaches.

I am not interested in long quotations from Matthew Henry, Pelagius, Arius, Calvin, John Gill, or any other person you may want to quote from. Are you not able to think for yourself?

 

[OldRegular]

The ability to copy and paste is elementary. My four year old grand-son can do it. It doesn't take much skill to do it.
Are you unable to make sense of what you post??

I notice that you have yet to exegete the passage. So I will cut and paste it again in case you have forgotten which it was:

John 3:3-8, NASB
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5. Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[DHK]

I notice that you have yet to exegete the passage. So I will cut and paste it again in case you have forgotten which it was:

John 3:3-8, NASB
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5. Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

You are right. I have not expounded on it at all. You have pasted this passage at least six times (this must be the seventh), and still have not commented on it. Don't you think you should go first?

 

[OldRegular]

I am interested in what the Bible says and teaches.
I am interested in what you believe the Bible says and teaches.

I am not interested in long quotations from Matthew Henry, Pelagius, Arius, Calvin, John Gill, or any other person you may want to quote from. Are you not able to think for yourself?

Had to sneak in a little snide remark didn't you preacher. I am able to think for myself. I know enough Scripture to know that God is Sovereign in the Salvation of any person even if they are too self righteous to admit it. I believe in light of your above remarks the following comment is worth reposting.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
You claim to be a preacher and didn't take time to read what other men believe! It is the height of arrogance to believe that you alone are privy to enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.

I recall when Jimmy Swaggert publicly proclaimed that God had anointed him above all others for a certain ministry. It was not too long before God humbled him!

 

[DHK]

Had to sneak in a little snide remark didn't you preacher. I am able to think for myself. I know enough Scripture to know that God is Sovereign in the Salvation of any person even if they are too self righteous to admit it. I believe in light of your above remarks the following comment is worth reposting.

In the light of your post:
I repeat: I am not interested in what Jimmy Swaggert or others have to say, I am interested in what you have to say on what this passage teaches. Are you not able to think for yourself and post your own thoughts on the teaching of the new birth?

 

[OldRegular]

Original Post by OldRegular
I notice that you have yet to exegete the passage. So I will cut and paste it again in case you have forgotten which it was:

John 3:3-8, NASB
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5. Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

You are right. I have not expounded on it at all. You have pasted this passage at least six times (this must be the seventh), and still have not commented on it. Don't you think you should go first?

Actually I like this passage and will give it as much exposure as possible. I believe this passage as written. The New Birth or regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit giving Spiritual Life to those dead in sin [See also Ephesians 2:1-8.] and precedes the Gift of faith.

You are the one who denies the truth of this passage so it seems to me you are obligated to give your eisegesis of it. I would say exegete but you have already indicated that you do not believe it.

 

[Winman]

There are many on this forum who would disagree with your statement that you believe what the Bible says! The Bible states:

Ephesisns 2:4, 5 NKJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

You see Scripture teaches that God, not man, is sovereign in Salvation!

Old Regular, I do not disagree with you here. I believe just as you do, it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us, that gives us eternal life. I do not have any power to give myself eternal life.

Where I disagree is faith. Faith is not some sort of magical power. Faith is trusting or depending on another. When you trust Christ, you do not perform any work whatsoever. No, in fact it is a total ceasing of trying to save oneself in any way, and allowing Jesus to save you. Jesus does have the power to save.

It is difficult to give a good analogy, but I will try. Let's say you went to a convention with lots of other folks and a fellow walked out on stage and said, "I promise to give a million dollars to the first person who comes up here and receives it"

Now, it's going to be real easy to determine who believes this man's promise, and who does not. The ones that believe will immediately rush to the stage to try to be the first one there and receive the free gift.

So, faith comes first, and the action comes as a result of the faith. If you do not believe the man's offer, you will not get up and try to get to the stage first. But if you believe the man, you will jump up right away and try to be the first there. So the action is the result of the faith.

And this is exactly what Paul explains in Romans.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul says whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Now, no man is going to call (an action) on Jesus to save him unless he first believes (faith) Jesus can save him. The man who believes Jesus is the Son of God will call on him. But the faith came first, the action follows the faith.

I have never called on any of the false gods of this world, because I do not believe in them. I believe Jesus is the truth, that he alone is the Son of the true God and can save me. So, I have only called on him, and only on Jesus do I depend.

But now, back to the million dollar offer. When you jump up out of the seat and run up there, now you are depending or relying upon that man to keep his promise. You are not doing any sort of work, you are depending on this man to do the work he promised and give you the money. And if he does give me the money, I did not earn it, it was a free gift. And by running up, I did not take away from this man's sovereignty in any way whatsoever. It was this man who determined the conditions of this transaction, I had no say whatsoever in the matter. I had to obey and do exactly what he said to do to receive the money, so how did I take away from his sovereignty?

And this is how it is with Jesus. I have no power, I cannot possibly save myself in any way whatsoever. But Jesus promised to save me if I would come to him in my heart. I did, and I am depending upon him 100% to save me. If Jesus doesn't save me like he promised to do, I am lost and will go to hell for my sins. I am not doing any kind of work whatsoever, I am depending on the work Jesus did at the cross, and depending on him to keep his promise and save me if I would come to him.

So, faith is not some sort of magical thing. It simply means to depend, trust, or rely upon Jesus to perform the promise he made.

Men can trust in anything and do. Millions trust on false gods. Millions of men will perish believing Mohammed will save them, or Budda will save them, or their works will save them. This is real faith, but they are placing their faith in the wrong person or works. Jesus Christ is the only person who can save anyone.

Faith is not a work, the scriptures contrast faith to works.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I really do not believe Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers truly understand what faith is.

 

[DHK]

Actually I like this passage and will give it as much exposure as possible. I believe this passage as written. You are the one who denies the truth of this passage so it seems to me you are obligated to give your eisegesis of it. I would say exegete but you have already indicated that you do not believe it.

Now that is the eighth time you have posted without comment. How long will it be, before you comment on it. BTW, my beliefs are very similar to Winman's and they are already posted. He's done a fine job of explaining what this passage means. Did you even read them. But you had no answer. No one has read what you believe on this passage because you have never taken the time to share with anyone what you think it believes.

As for your slur and personal attack on me, I already said, that I believe all the Bible. If there is a person that doesn't believe this passage it would appear to be you because you will not comment on that which you post. Remember "you shall know them by their works." If a man says he believes, but won't tell how or why he believes, then what is one to conclude??

 

[OldRegular]

In the light of your post:
I repeat: I am not interested in what Jimmy Swaggert or others have to say, I am interested in what you have to say on what this passage teaches. Are you not able to think for yourself and post your own thoughts on the teaching of the new birth?

I am not as arrogant as you or Jimmy Swaggert and believe that I am the sole source of the Holy Spirits revelation of the interpretation of Scripture!:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

I am just as arrogant as you or Jimmy Swaggert and believe that I am the sole source of the Holy Spirits revelation of the interpretation of Scripture!:thumbs:

It would seem like it.
You can copy and paste. Fine. But what is the new birth? How is a person born again? Why don't you know the answer to such elementary questions of our faith?