Thanks for your response and your feelings on this, I hope to offer a more mainstream and biblical view.
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Where does God's Wrath Go?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
The Apostle Paul does not agree with your conclusion;"If you believe I am not He, you shall die in your sins."
You see, not the sin but the rejection is the source of God's wrath.
Rom1;18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The Apostle Paul does not agree with your conclusion;
Rom1;18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
If you read the next verse,
19
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."
God is angry with man because man will not acknowledge that He exists.
21
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul is beginning Romans with man before the Law, before Christ took the sin of man upon Himself.
He progresses through the next few chapters explaining that man is totally depraved, and needs a Savior.
Leading up to the present where Christ is the answer to all of man's problems.
If you read the next verse,
19
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."
God is angry with man because man will not acknowledge that He exists.
21
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul is beginning Romans with man before the Law, before Christ took the sin of man upon Himself.
He progresses through the next few chapters explaining that man is totally depraved, and needs a Savior.
Leading up to the present where Christ is the answer to all of man's problems.
I hope this helps.
2 Thes. 2:11-12
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
They are all damned because they believed not.
I hope this helps.
2 Thes. 2:11-12
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
They are all damned because they believed not.
Hopefully you can see my point.
God's wrath abides on the wicked because he has refused believe on His Son.
I see what you are offering, but that is sinful man's default position. If they are outside of Jesus, they are still subject to that wrath, that is Paul's point. The gospel is that Jesus is the propitiation, and sinners need to be in Him to escape the wrath to come.Hopefully you can see my point.
God's wrath abides on the wicked because he has refused believe on His Son.
I see what you are offering, but that is sinful man's default position. If they are outside of Jesus, they are still subject to that wrath, that is Paul's point. The gospel is that Jesus is the propitiation, and sinners need to be in Him to escape the wrath to come.
Yes, I agree, but His wrath is on the unbelief of man that makes him a sinner before God.
No, you do not agree. Men are sinners born under the wrath of God. God does not wait for them to grow up, express unbelief, then put His wrath on them. You seem to be trying to fake as if you agree, but really you do not.Yes, I agree, but His wrath is on the unbelief of man that makes him a sinner before God.
No, you do not agree. Men are sinners born under the wrath of God. God does not wait for them to grow up, express unbelief, then put His wrath on them. You seem to be trying to fake as if you agree, but really you do not.
Well, I suppose I don't agree, since you put it that way.
Well, I suppose I don't agree, since you put it that way.
I was thinking @Zaatar71 , if a child is born and dies a few days later, that child would go to Hell being under the wrath of God.
Paul, when referring to Esau and Isaac "not yet born, having done neither good nor evil.." is saying that these in the womb had no sin.
How then can an infant child who has no understanding of sin be under the wrath of God?
Is there a point in everyone's life where this knowledge of sin is understood and man is accountable for his sin?
Some have said this infant child would go to heaven only if the parents are saved. I consider this as the child being granted the faith of another and unbiblical.
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Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world; and babies & infants are not what the bible means by "sinners" for to them "belongs the kingdom of God" cf. Mark 10:14.I see what you are offering, but that is sinful man's default position. If they are outside of Jesus, they are still subject to that wrath, that is Paul's point. The gospel is that Jesus is the propitiation, and sinners need to be in Him to escape the wrath to come.
There is no "default" position of a man being taken to have rejected Christ, before he has rejected him. Moreover, the mere fact of commiting a transgression of the law isn't synonymous with "rejecting Christ", as there are different categories of sin.
Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world; and babies & infants are not what the bible means by "sinners" for to them "belongs the kingdom of God" cf. Mark 10:14.
There is no "default" position of a man being taken to have rejected Christ, before he has rejected him. Moreover, the mere fact of commiting a transgression of the law isn't synonymous with "rejecting Christ", as there are different categories of sin.
His belief is the end result of the TULIP theory.
But let's give him time to figure that out for himself.