Where does the Bible teach a pre-trib rapture?

[George Antonios]

Not according to 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

Well of course not according to 1Thessalonians 4:15. That's Paul talking to the church about its rapture.

 

[MB]

I can appreciate that view. I hope your right, but I don’t think scripture supports it. When does tribulation refer to anything other than persecution of God’s people?

It is inconsistent, imo, with Jesus’s warning in Matthew 24 of this great tribulation that the believers do endure. Afterward, Jesus returns and the elect are gathered. Hard to conceive this tribulation is not the “great tribulation”.

Also, why all the warnings to endure persecution; that those enduring faithfully to the end will be saved; the warning of the apostasy, the falling away of professing Christians due to persecution? Why the warnings if the church will not endure the “great tribulation” which has the purpose of separating wheat from tares, goats from sheep’s.

The “great tribulation” of the church will reveal God’s children.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Are you suggesting that they can be saved twice. If they are in fact Gods they don't need saving. In my opinion we are saved from tribulation and hell when we believe. How ever there will be saved people who come out of the tribulation. These were not saved before the tribulation. There will be 144000 Jews who will be preaching and leading people to Christ.
MB

 

[37818]

Well of course not according to 1Thessalonians 4:15. That's Paul talking to the church about its rapture.

No, the only rapture. Do you understand why that is? 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

 

[George Antonios]

No, the only rapture. Do you understand why that is? 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

No I don't understand how quoting a verse talking to the church about its rapture disannuls the rapture of non-church tribulation saints.

 

[37818]

No I don't understand how quoting a verse talking to the church about its rapture disannuls the rapture of non-church tribulation saints.

What do you know about Greek word having the meaning of "never" meaning "not in any way!" That word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ". . . that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not [in any way] precede them which are asleep. . . ." And that is not the whole argument.

 

[George Antonios]

What do you know about Greek word having the meaning of "never" meaning "not in any way!" That word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ". . . that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not [in any way] precede them which are asleep. . . ." And that is not the whole argument.

I'm sorry I have no idea what you're saying here. I don't mean that disparagingly, I honestly can't follow the thought.

 

[37818]

I'm sorry I have no idea what you're saying here. I don't mean that disparagingly, I honestly can't follow the thought.

It is my understanding that no believer will be raptured before any who would die are resurrected first. When our Lord makes His second appearing all believers will be like Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . we ever be with the Lord. . . ." Again, there is more to this.

 

[George Antonios]

It is my understanding that no believer will be raptured before any who would die are resurrected first.

I don't understand how this is an objection. A) Paul is revealing truths concerning the church, not concerning tribulation saints (who are not the church). B) You can still apply the principle to tribulation saints: no living tribulations saints will be raptured before the dead tribulation saints have been raised.
So again, I don't see where the problem is.

When our Lord makes His second appearing all believers will be like Him

A) This is only promised to church-age believers. This is our promised predestination. There is no such predestination unto Christ's-image-bearing glorified bodies promised to tribulation saints. B) But again, let's apply it to tribulation saints. How is that an objection to my statement that there is more than 1 rapture?

Tribulation saints are not part of the church.

 

[MB]

What do you know about Greek word having the meaning of "never" meaning "not in any way!" That word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ". . . that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not [in any way] precede them which are asleep. . . ." And that is not the whole argument.

What do you consider the wrath of God to be? If it isn't the tribulation Then explain. The Bible says;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I can only think of the wrath of God. Do you really think a loving God would leave His children here to suffer His wrath? How do you figure God would save us from wrath. Everyone would have to move somewhere other than Earth because the tribulation will be the worst disaster to ever happen.. How would we survive?
Christians will be beheaded and suffer at the hands of men. That is those who are saved during the tribulation. Not to mention the anguish and pain of watching others suffer greatly while we are hear

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why would we be taken up in the air to meet the Lord just to turn around and come back down again at His coming?
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Are you suggesting that they can be saved twice. If they are in fact Gods they don't need saving. In my opinion we are saved from tribulation and hell when we believe. How ever there will be saved people who come out of the tribulation. These were not saved before the tribulation. There will be 144000 Jews who will be preaching and leading people to Christ.
MB

Jesus is talking about perseverance. A sign of salvation is enduring the tribulation, not falling away.

A sign of a false profession is falling away during persecution.

Persecution/tribulation separates sheep and goats/ wheat and tares.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Tribulation saints are not part of the church.

If that is so then the church has no part in the Millennium. Revelation 20:4. ,". . . And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . . ."

 

[George Antonios]

If that is so then the church has no part in the Millennium. Revelation 20:4. ,". . . And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . . ."

I offer the same counter in reverse now.
1Thessalonians 4 is about the church's rapture and has no bearing on any other body's rapture - or lack thereof.
Similarly, Revelation 20:4 is about the reigning of tribulation saints and has no bearing on the church's millennial rule - or lack thereof.
Yet again, where's the objection?

 

[37818]

What do you consider the wrath of God to be? If it isn't the tribulation Then explain. The Bible says;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I can only think of the wrath of God. Do you really think a loving God would leave His children here to suffer His wrath? How do you figure God would save us from wrath. Everyone would have to move somewhere other than Earth because the tribulation will be the worst disaster to ever happen.. How would we survive?
Christians will be beheaded and suffer at the hands of men. That is those who are saved during the tribulation. Not to mention the anguish and pain of watching others suffer greatly while we are hear

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why would we be taken up in the air to meet the Lord just to turn around and come back down again at His coming?
MB

I am not going to write a book here.
Our Lord is returning per Acts 1:11, per Matthew 24:29-31, per Revelation 6:12-17, per 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, per 1 Corinthians 15:52. At the last trumpet. These references are that one event. After the Tribulation before God's wrath Revelation 6:17.

 

[37818]

I offer the same counter in reverse now.
1Thessalonians 4 is about the church's rapture and has no bearing on any other body's rapture - or lack thereof.
Similarly, Revelation 20:4 is about the reigning of tribulation saints and has no bearing on the church's millennial rule - or lack thereof.
Yet again, where's the objection?

I understand there is only that one first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[George Antonios]

I understand there is only that one first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-6.

One harvest with three installments: firstfruits (those that rose with Christ), harvest (church), gleanings (tribulation saints).
And that's how Paul speaks of it:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

But with Christ rose many bodies of the saints:
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So MANY rose from the dead long before the supposed singular-and-future resurrection. Clearly then the first resurrection is a reference to the resurrection of all the righteous unto life, in sundry installments, before the millennium.

If you understand it as one-singular event, then you must overlook much revelation.
With that kind of "understanding" you could read:
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And claim that Gabriel taught a simultaneous singular resurrection of just and unjust, yet John reveals there are two and separated by 1,000 years, as you quoted.

2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[37818]

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ the firstfruits is solely Christ Himself. And Christ's at His coming are the first resurrection with the rapture immediately following per Matthew 24:31.

 

[MB]

Jesus is talking about perseverance. A sign of salvation is enduring the tribulation, not falling away.

A sign of a false profession is falling away during persecution.

Persecution/tribulation separates sheep and goats/ wheat and tares.

peace to you

The separating of the sheep and goats happens on judgement day They are gathered before the Lord and Judged the sheep will receive there rewards and the goats are sent to hell Mat. 25:32-41, This is after the tribulation is over. Christ is already on His throne.
MB

 

[MB]

I am not going to write a book here.
Our Lord is returning per Acts 1:11, per Matthew 24:29-31, per Revelation 6:12-17, per 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, per 1 Corinthians 15:52. At the last trumpet. These references are that one event. After the Tribulation before God's wrath Revelation 6:17.

Then explain why we, those that will be caught up are caught up into the air to meet the Lord in the air? Just to return with the Lord.

1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
He cannot return with all His saints unless they are with Him. You seem to disregard this fact. The saints have to be caught up first,
MB

 

[37818]

Then explain why we, those that will be caught up are caught up into the air to meet the Lord in the air? Just to return with the Lord.

There are two parts to this one event. First 1 Thessalonians 4:14, ". . . them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. . . ." First the resurrection. Then the rapture per Matthew 24:31. After which God's wrath is poured out, Revelation 6:17. After that all the believers coming to earth just prior to the Millennium, followed by the Judgement.

 

[MB]

There are two parts to this one event. First 1 Thessalonians 4:14, ". . . them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. . . ." First the resurrection. Then the rapture per Matthew 24:31. After which God's wrath is poured out, Revelation 6:17. After that all the believers coming to earth just prior to the Millennium, followed by the Judgement.

If the Rapture does happen before the wrath of God then it is only reasonable the rapture happens before the tribulation thus a pre-tribulation rapture. It last for 7 years. To me it starts when the man of sin ,or the anti Christ comes on the scene and he is revealed.. He can't come on the scene until the one that with holds sin is removed.This would have to be the Church I speculate. The first 3 1/2 years is when his treaty is signed and he presents him self as god
MB.