Where does the Bible teach a pre-trib rapture?

[George Antonios]

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Christ the firstfruits is solely Christ Himself.

I suppose you missed the quoting of Matthew 27:52-53 in my post? Christ is the first of the firstfruits.
But if you want to restrict it to Christ alone, fine, that doesn't change the fact that many saints rose from the dead at least 2,000 years before that first resurrection.

 

[37818]

If the Rapture does happen before the wrath of God then it is only reasonable the rapture happens before the tribulation thus a pre-tribulation rapture. It last for 7 years. To me it starts when the man of sin ,or the anti Christ comes on the scene and he is revealed.. He can't come on the scene until the one that with holds sin is removed.This would have to be the Church I speculate. The first 3 1/2 years is when his treaty is signed and he presents him self as god
MB.

We do not agree on this. My understanding is post trib per Matthew 24:29-31 and pre wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. The last trumpet being in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 per 1 Corinthians 15:52.

 

[George Antonios]

We do not agree on this. My understanding is post trib per Matthew 24:29-31 and pre wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. The last trumpet being in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 per 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Guys, there is no rapture in Matthew 24. There:
The ones left are the saved ones.
The ones taken are the lost.
Like Noah's flood.
Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The gathering there is from the corners of the earth to Zion.

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with 1Thessalonians 4.

 

[canadyjd]

The separating of the sheep and goats happens on judgement day They are gathered before the Lord and Judged the sheep will receive there rewards and the goats are sent to hell Mat. 25:32-41, This is after the tribulation is over. Christ is already on His throne.
MB

You are right. I stand corrected. Apologies

Tribulation separates wheat and tares; false professions of faith will be revealed.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I suppose you missed the quoting of Matthew 27:52-53 in my post? Christ is the first of the firstfruits.

Not at all. I stated plainly Christ is solely the firstfruits. Which is singular not the English plural. The Greek is the singular απαρχη being translated firstfruits as a singular in meaning. Really.

 

[canadyjd]

Guys, there is no rapture in Matthew 24. There:
The ones left are the saved ones.
The ones taken are the lost.
Like Noah's flood.
Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The gathering there is from the corners of the earth to Zion.

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with 1Thessalonians 4.

Matthew 24 is talking about tribulation.

The ones taken are taken for persecution.

The ones left are urged to flee.

peace to you

 

[MB]

We do not agree on this. My understanding is post trib per Matthew 24:29-31 and pre wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. The last trumpet being in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 per 1 Corinthians 15:52.

If the rapture is after the tribulation which is what you are saying, then how can the rapture happen before wrath. God's wrath or the anti Christ? How can anti Christ be revealed with out the one who with holds back sin be removed? Please explain?
MB

 

[37818]

The ones left are the saved ones.
The ones taken are the lost.

Agreed. It is my understanding where rapture takes place Is in the "from one end of heaven to the other." Per the last trumpet.

 

[George Antonios]

Not at all. I stated plainly Christ is solely the firstfruits. Which is singular not the English plural. The Greek is the singular απαρχη being translated firstfruits as a singular in meaning. Really.

My reply also addressed the possibility that you had not missed it.
So again, many saints rose from the dead long before the first resurrection because the first resurrection has more than 1 installment.

 

[37818]

If the rapture is after the tribulation which is what you are saying, then how can the rapture happen before wrath. God's wrath or the anti Christ? How can anti Christ be revealed with out the one who with holds back sin be removed? Please explain?
MB

I had already answer that. Re: per Revelation 6:17. Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12 being the common event.

My understanding is post trib per Matthew 24:29-31 and pre wrath per Revelation 6:12-17. The last trumpet being in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 per 1 Corinthians 15:52.

 

[37818]

My reply also addressed the possibility that you had not missed it.
So again, many saints rose from the dead long before the first resurrection because the first resurrection has more than 1 installment.

It is my understanding that ". . .
saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, . . ." were not yet resurrected to immortality as Jesus was. They will receive that at time of the Millennium per Revelation 20:6.

 

[George Antonios]

It is my understanding that ". . .
saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, . . ." were not yet resurrected to immortality as Jesus was. They will receive that at time of the Millennium per Revelation 20:6.

Those were not people raised before the resurrection of Christ, like the son of Nain's widow.
They are raised after and by Christ's resurrection.
And so the following applies to them:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[...]
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Theirs was an eternal resurrection.
Indeed, he thereupon led captivity captive, When he ascended up on high.
Those people, along with the souls in Abraham's bosom, were taken up.

the first resurrection has more than one phase, just like a harvest: firstfruits, harvest, gleanings.
That's why we only read of the first resurrection at the beginning of the millennial kingdom, once the gleanings are in.
It's the one resurrection unto life, with the fruits coming in in three installments.

They will receive the kingdom at that time (of the kingdom) yes, but the eternal resurrection is theirs already.

 

[37818]

Those were not people raised before the resurrection of Christ, like the son of Nain's widow.
They are raised after and by Christ's resurrection.
And so the following applies to them:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[...] . . .

We do not agree on this matter regarding Matthew 27:52-53. Their purpose was solely to go, ". . . into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Beyond that is purely extra Biblical speculation.

 

[MB]

I had already answer that. Re: per Revelation 6:17. Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12 being the common event.

I have a few more questions. You keep repeating the" Last Trump" .There is only one verse in the Bible that mentions the last trump Mathew only calls it a trumpet. The same with the book of revelations.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The gathering of His elect are the 144000 Jews.Placed on earth to preach the gospel. I know you believe in election of yourself. Yet for me I don't believe in it for myself so I see this from a whole different perspective..
MB

 

[37818]

I have a few more questions. You keep repeating the" Last Trump" .There is only one verse in the Bible that mentions the last trump Mathew only calls it a trumpet. The same with the book of revelations.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The gathering of His elect are the 144000 Jews.Placed on earth to preach the gospel. I know you believe in election of yourself. Yet for me I don't believe in it for myself so I see this from a whole different perspective..
MB

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." This identified with the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
There is a seventh trumpet in Revelation. And there is the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 before or after or the same? There really can only be literally one last trumpet. Else it is really meaningless.

 

[MB]

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." This identified with the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
There is a seventh trumpet in Revelation. And there is the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 before or after or the same? There really can only be literally one last trumpet. Else it is really meaningless.

I would not say meaningless because the 144000 have to be caught up to be with the Lord as well and they are elect. Thank you for your patience. I understand you better We can agree that we disagree on the raptures
MB

 

[37818]

I would not say meaningless because the 144000 have to be caught up to be with the Lord as well and they are elect. Thank you for your patience. I understand you better We can agree that we disagree on the raptures
MB

We do agree that Israel is God's elect. My difficulty is I am unable to make the case that Israel are God's elect excluding gentiles when they also become God's people too.

 

[JD731]

Concerning the pre-trib rapture. The rapture of the church can be considered as part of the harvest of this age. In Matt 13 Jesus gives us 7 parable to describe this entire age from the resurrection and ascension until his second coming at the end of it. He begins sowing his seed in the field, which he later identifies as the world. We read on and we find him at harvest time. It is a Jewish book so we will consider the harvest in the same way they viewed it. Here it is in a three fold picture. Three in one and one in three, the Trinatarian signature. It is everywhere in the scriptures.

1) The first fruits
2) The main harvest
3) The gleanings

The first fruit of the harvest is a given. No one in his right mind would deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ and many OT saints because Jesus said his resurrection is the first fruits. The main part of the harvest is the rapture of the church and the gleanings are the resurrection of those saints who died in the tribulation, just like the scriptures says. This is one resurrection with 3 parts. The resurrection of the wicked dead is after the 1000 years of Re 20, just like the scripture says.

Please do not confuse the resurrection and deny it.

 

[George Antonios]

We do not agree on this matter regarding Matthew 27:52-53. Their purpose was solely to go, ". . . into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Beyond that is purely extra Biblical speculation.

Not with Romans 6 under our noses it's not.
Saying they died is speculation, even less than that given Romans 6 and Ephesians 4.

 

[37818]

Not with Romans 6 under our noses it's not.
Saying they died is speculation, even less than that given Romans 6 and Ephesians 4.

We seem to have a different understanding on Matthew 27:52-53. It is my understanding, if not yours, for those to come out of their graves their tombs had to be physically opened. And it was only for the locals in Jerusalem. Not anything like Christ's resurrection or His at His second appearing.