37818
Well-Known Member
A pre-trib rapture totally contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which proves you have no clue.
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The trumpet judgements in the Revelation are totally separate from the trumpets in 1 Corinthians 15. The last trumpet in 1 Cor 15 is a reference to the fulfillment of the prophetic annual 5th feast day of Israel and the beginning of the third festival of Israel, which took place in Israel's 7th month (October) on the first day of the month. It is the harvest festival. It was celebrated by the blowing of trumpets. At the end of this harvest festival, atonement was made for Israel on the 10th of the month (feast of day of atonement) and Israel was in her land dwelling safely in tabernacles, pictured by the feast of tabernacles on the 15th of the month.
The main harvest is something to celebrate, which is the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ (which is not Israel), which had grown and matured in this age from the cross to the harvest.
1) Jesus Christ and the OT saints - The first fruits of the harvest.
2) The gathering" of the church, that has been formed because of the cross of Christ. - The main harvest.
3) The gleanings of the Harvest - The resurrection of the believers who perish in the tribulation, that happens at the very end of this harvest time.
1) Feast of Passover - The Dying of Christ
2) Feast of Unleavened Bread - No corruption in his body while in the tomb
3) Feast of First Fruits - His resurrection with the OT saints
Festival - Israel gathered in Jerusalem
4) Pentecost (50) Feast of Weeks - The pouring out of his Spirit from heaven to indwell Israel - Festival - Israel gathered in Jerusalem
Above is fulfilled.
Final Feasts not fulfilled.
5) Feast of Trumpets - The gathering from all over the world of his church and taking it to the barn.
6) Feast of Day of Atonement - The salvation of all that are left of Israel from the nations
7) Feast of Tabernacles - The restoring of the scattered of Israel to their own land (as described in Mt 24) Israel gathered in Jerusalem
All of this above is about this age we are living in now.
In the OT God had Israel to fashion two trumpets with different sounds. One trumpet when it sounded was a call to the camp to assemble. The other trumpet was a call to march. This I believe to be the context of the "last trump" of 1 Cor 15 and the Trumpet of the Lord in 1 Thess 4. Those of Israel will be summoned to Jerusalem where the final showdown between God and Satan will take place. This is the place where God will deliver and save Israel, according to the prophets.
The Bible is a Jewish book and forgetting that will cause one to confuse how God is working out his purposes in heaven and on earth.
This age is the 6th age of the 7 ages God, in time,has determined to eliminate sin from the earth.
The fulfilling of the final festival of Israel demands that Israel be gathered in Jerusalem where the temple of God is. You say the temple is not there. It will be when these things come to pass. The temple is where God meets with his people.
Something to think about is that more Jews have come to Christ in the last 50 years than ever before..
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
Aside from your rhetoric being nonsense.
The claim of feast of trumpets is date setting.
Compare: Rapture 2021: The Feast of Trumpets
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Have it your way.
Is the 11th commandment "thou shalt not set dates"? Where do I find this in scriptures, if you do not mind my asking? God said the feast of trumpets was on the 1 day of the seventh month. The passover was the beginning of months for Israel. It was in April, according to our calendar.
Exo 12:And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Did Jesus die on this day and was there a festival of the Jews going on in Jerusalem, or not?
Was the Holy Ghost sent down on the Jews from heaven by God on the 50th day after the feast of first fruits, or not, and was there a festival going on in Jerusalem? Has God kept dates so far. To tell me that I cannot observe what God has done so far in this age and to understand that his feasts days and festivals are prophetic because it does not agree with you is way over the top.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not my way but . . .
Mark 13:32, " . . . of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." And Acts of the Apostles 1:7, " . . . he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."
So you think Mark 13:32 and Acts 1:7 is the 11th commandment? "Thou shalt not set dates." Do you think the Son knows now when he will return. It makes me wonder who you think gave all the NT prophecy of his coming back to the earth if the timing is hidden from him. It was the glorified Lord Jesus who was present with John on the isle of Patmos when he wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The revelation is about his coming and every eye seeing him. Is it your position because of Mark 13:32 that he does not know the day or the hour of his coming? He says he is coming back on "the Lord's day."
I think you should go back and consider context of these passages you quoted and understand that Jesus Christ is speaking to a subset of people here that you are not part of. He is sure not putting any restrictions on the study and understanding of his second coming to the earth. When Jesus spoke to the apostles in Acts 1 they were as ignorant about the purpose of God in this age as anyone could be. Their question to him proved it, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" That is a legitimate question and one that would be expected of them because for 3.5 years they had been preaching the "gospel of the kingdom of God," and saying it is at hand. So, when they began preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to Israel, it was that they must believe and repent and receive the Messiah that they slew and buried and who rose from the dead. How did they go from being completely ignorant of this in Acts 1:7 to being the brave and fearless preachers of it only 40 days later.
Here is you answer.
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
The forty days are counted from his ascension to Pentecost and Acts 1:7 is the first in that count. On crucifixion eve Jesus said this to his apostles. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
I am going to insert a quote from each of the gospels, all at the very end of the earthly ministry of Jesus. I doubt you will even believe it but here it is anyway.
Matthew
16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mt 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
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Mark 9:
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
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Luke
18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
John
20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
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Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Eight men, possibly nine men, wrote the NT. What they say is what the Spirit gave them and what they have given to us. Everything that pertains to this age is given through these men. They know when Jesus is coming again. Paul said the trumpet is going to sound and he is coming at the last trump. This means there is at least one trumpet before that, no? Is it coincidence that the harvest is concerned with trumpets and the next feast day of Israel to be fulfilled is the feast of Trumpets?
It is difficult to talk to men who cannot figure out the context of the Bible and the work of God in the redemption of mankind because they are blinded by cliches'. Some of the doctrines that are put forth here strips Jesus Christ our glorious Lord of all his glory.
37818
Well-Known Member
When He is returning then He will. The Son is not the Father.
The day of the LORD judgements are for the whole earth and for sinners and the wicked. Just men are not sinners and they are not wicked. Look at this;
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
This is not the church of Jesus Christ. This is not describing someone who has his righteousness in them in the person of the Holy Spirit.Jesus Christ has already suffered the wrath of God for the church on the cross. We are "in Christ." We are his body. The scriptures says in 1 Peter 3:18 that he has ONCE suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust that he may bring us to God.
If we go through the great tribulation it will mean that God is punishing Jesus Christ again for our sins and we have trusted him that he is our substitute and that he has delivered us from the wrath to come. Don't you know anything about the church and what God has done for us through Christ? I think not. It is blasphemous for anyone to teach that Christ sacrifice was not good enough to save us from the penalty of sin. Punish us and you punish him because we are his body and we are therefore in him.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not a word about a pre trib rapture.
"sigh"
You are a post tribber and it looks like you are going to stand your ground no matter what the scriptures actually say.
The church of Jesus Christ is going to be punished as the inhabitants of the earth, you teach. They are not reconciled to God and have been born as sons and daughters into his family by repenting and trusting in Christ and being placed in him and he in us, you teach. Few people will be left on the earth after this wrath of God, we are told.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
So much for Rom 5.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
So you are saying Paul is wrong about this? We have peace with God and therefore we are still slated to experience his wrath as an enemy?
Why would God treat us as an enemy after we become his children and have the righteousness of Christ in us and upon us?
I am sorry but I don't get your reading comprehension at all. Read this.
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (the day of the Lord is coming in the night)
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Now read this about the day of the LORD.
Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.
Am 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Well, how is the church going to be rescued?
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (WHAT IS THE MYSTERY- Read V 10)
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
This is the pretrib rapture of the church and you have read it for years and did not even know it.
THE MAIN HARVEST
Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mt 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them (in the great tribulation fire): but gather the wheat into my barn.
Would you like to see the gleanings of the harvest?
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (the Jewish believing remnant who survives to the end) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It seems you just have not applied any logic or reasoning to your rejection of salvation from the wrath to come by the pre-trib rapture of the church of God.
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