Where does this fit in your theology?

[Hark]

Only the 12 Apostles could speak in tongues along with those they laid hands on. Two exceptions are the Jewish outpouring at Pentecost and the gentile outpouring 7 years later at Cornelius' house.

You cannot support more than that with scripture.

The 2 exceptions are the ones you should give pause to for why your initial statement can not be true for saying "only".

 

[kyredneck]

How come it is always "I knew someone"

...lol, zactly...

 

[Hark]

Paul said the basis for edification is knowing what is said. He said tongue speakers edified themselves. That is, they knew what they were saying along with those hearing their interpretation. This proves how false today's "tongues" are.

Discernment is needed when applying Paul's words in the context of the message he is giving about tongues as spiritual gift.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Therein s the topic; Paul is starting the topic that if any believer seeks a spiritual gift, they were to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts. He goes on to explain why by comparing the gift of tongues against the gift of prophesy fro why prophesy is better because tongues is not a stand alone gift.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

When you add verses 2:3 together, it is the same point Paul is trying to make in verse 4 but still a mystery as verse 2.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Paul explains why prophesy is better because tongues has to be interpreted thus not a stand alone gift.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

In the context of the message as we read on, the tongue speaker cannot know what they are saying for why they are to pray that another interpret. That is why it is unfruitful to the tongue speaker because he is praying to for interpretation to understand it & not just from hearing that tongue from another tongue speaker.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Since chapter 12 came before chapter 14, we are to understand how Paul is seaking and what he had meant in the precedent he has set from before.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

That means no one member can speak in tongues & interpret that tongue; when only another can do it. Confirmation as to how that it so in the body when believers thinks they can speak in tongues & interpret that tongue at the same time is here.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.....19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Look at how they are to prophesy...

1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Now look at how they are to speak in tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

When reading the letter in context, the one judging cannot be of the 2 or 3 prophesying any more than the one interpreting cannot be of the 2 or 3 speaking in tongues.

In closing in regards to verse 2... on how they are not speaking TO God but God understands what is being said.. we read..

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Is the man crazy in speaking to himself and to God? No. He understands what he is saying as God does for why he is not speaking TO God in verse 2 either. When you have 2 or 3 speaking in tongues, and a visitor in church speaks out of turn, he is commanded to be silent. This is rightly dividing the word of truth because if he was speaking as the Holy Spirit manifested, that would be like we can tell the Holy Spirit to be silent or shut up? No. So it is not the Holy Spirit speaking but someone is speaking out of turn as a visiting foreigner and proof of that is there is no interpretation for what that man is saying. Hence tongues is not a stand alone gift for why he is commanded to be silent.

I can only hope in the Lod that He will help you understand the way Paul is writing but in the whole context of what he is sharing in that letter about the use of God's gift of tongues in the church for why we should seek prophesy over all gifts..

 

[1689Dave]

Discernment is needed when applying Paul's words in the context of the message he is giving about tongues as spiritual gift.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Therein s the topic; Paul is starting the topic that if any believer seeks a spiritual gift, they were to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts. He goes on to explain why by comparing the gift of tongues against the gift of prophesy fro why prophesy is better because tongues is not a stand alone gift.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

When you add verses 2:3 together, it is the same point Paul is trying to make in verse 4 but still a mystery as verse 2.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Paul explains why prophesy is better because tongues has to be interpreted thus not a stand alone gift.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

In the context of the message as we read on, the tongue speaker cannot know what they are saying for why they are to pray that another interpret. That is why it is unfruitful to the tongue speaker because he is praying to for interpretation to understand it & not just from hearing that tongue from another tongue speaker.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Since chapter 12 came before chapter 14, we are to understand how Paul is seaking and what he had meant in the precedent he has set from before.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

That means no one member can speak in tongues & interpret that tongue; when only another can do it. Confirmation as to how that it so in the body when believers thinks they can speak in tongues & interpret that tongue at the same time is here.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.....19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Look at how they are to prophesy...

1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Now look at how they are to speak in tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

When reading the letter in context, the one judging cannot be of the 2 or 3 prophesying any more than the one interpreting cannot be of the 2 or 3 speaking in tongues.

In closing in regards to verse 2... on how they are not speaking TO God but God understands what is being said.. we read..

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Is the man crazy in speaking to himself and to God? No. He understands what he is saying as God does for why he is not speaking TO God in verse 2 either. When you have 2 or 3 speaking in tongues, and a visitor in church speaks out of turn, he is commanded to be silent. This is rightly dividing the word of truth because if he was speaking as the Holy Spirit manifested, that would be like we can tell the Holy Spirit to be silent or shut up? No. So it is not the Holy Spirit speaking but someone is speaking out of turn as a visiting foreigner and proof of that is there is no interpretation for what that man is saying. Hence tongues is not a stand alone gift for why he is commanded to be silent.

I can only hope in the Lod that He will help you understand the way Paul is writing but in the whole context of what he is sharing in that letter about the use of God's gift of tongues in the church for why we should seek prophesy over all gifts..

Scripture is only understood by the born again. That's why you have so many bizarre interpretations and fringe denominations. Stick with the Ecumenical Creeds and avoid being a heretic.

 

[1689Dave]

The 2 exceptions are the ones you should give pause to for why your initial statement can not be true for saying "only".

Find another is scripture if you can.

 

[1689Dave]

so the Church at Corinth does not count? your theology is SO unbiblical!

Paul was their Apostle (gift source). Why did he need to go to Rome to impart gifts if it is as you and Pentecostals say?

 

[canadyjd]

Find another is scripture if you can.

Paul devotes several chapters in 1Cor to the manifestation of Spiritual gifts among the brethren, including “tongues”.

As I’ve already stated, I believe Paul is discouraging the use of “tongues” in worship, but he clearly allows for the possibility they could be genuine manifestations of God, Holy Spirit.

Paul also praises the proclamation of the gospel, whether in pretense or truth because the gospel Jesus s being proclaimed.

If a brother in Christ bears testimony of a supernatural manifestation of God Holy Spirit in the proclamation of the gospel, why not rejoice?

peace to you

 

[Hark]

Scripture is only understood by the born again.

James would not exhort believers to ask the Lord for wisdom if there would not be times for it; James 1:5-6

That's why you have so many bizarre interpretations and fringe denominations.

If you accept the reason why lost books are not accepted as scripture because they run contrary to the accepted scripture, then when rightly dividing the word of truth, whatever application you apply, it cannot run contrary to other scriptures.

As it is how believers & you apply certain verses to mean in that same book of 1 Corinthians, and even in that same chapter, they are not in alignment with the rest of what Paul is saying about God's gift of tongues so you need His help to understand this..

Stick with the Ecumenical Creeds and avoid being a heretic.

No scripture taught any believer to do that for abiding in His words and in truth. Indeed, the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. is not fully supported by scripture. One web site gives scriptural references for each line in that modified Nicene creed BUT that scriptural reference has nothing to do in proving that line to be a biblical teaching or practice to do.

Indeed, the ecumenical creed can be seen as the fruit of the false prophet as it gathers grapes of thorns & figs of thistles as Catholic Churches uses those creeds.

Scripture is how we correct, reprove others by.. not man made creeds. One is too many for saying how they use Catholic to mean and so hardly abstaining from all appearances of evil since there is no agreement with workers of iniquity.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Hark]

Find another is scripture if you can.

There is no point. For you to say only and yet give 2 exceptions, defeats your conclusion of using "only" now does it? Until you have it written as taught as such in any epistle to the churches, you are taking the history of the early church in developing a doctrine that is not taught so readily to the church as you are doing it. Has the Lord made you aware of that?

 

[1689Dave]

Paul devotes several chapters in 1Cor to the manifestation of Spiritual gifts among the brethren, including “tongues”.

As I’ve already stated, I believe Paul is discouraging the use of “tongues” in worship, but he clearly allows for the possibility they could be genuine manifestations of God, Holy Spirit.

Paul also praises the proclamation of the gospel, whether in pretense or truth because the gospel Jesus s being proclaimed.

If a brother in Christ bears testimony of a supernatural manifestation of God Holy Spirit in the proclamation of the gospel, why not rejoice?

peace to you

What you are missing, is, The gifts only came through an apostle's hands. No apostles = no gifts. You need to prove this wrong or remain seriously crippled in your bible understanding.

 

[Hark]

Paul devotes several chapters in 1Cor to the manifestation of Spiritual gifts among the brethren, including “tongues”.

As I’ve already stated, I believe Paul is discouraging the use of “tongues” in worship, but he clearly allows for the possibility they could be genuine manifestations of God, Holy Spirit.

Paul was not discouraging the use of tongues in worship when he wants us to covet prophesy and to use tongues properly & in order.

1 Corinthians 14: 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

The order is 2 or 3 speak in tongues and another not of the 2 or 3 speaking in tongues, interpret the 2 or 3 that has spooekn in tongues.

Just as 2 or 3 prophesy & another judge.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Paul also praises the proclamation of the gospel, whether in pretense or truth because the gospel Jesus s being proclaimed.

If a brother in Christ bears testimony of a supernatural manifestation of God Holy Spirit in the proclamation of the gospel, why not rejoice?

peace to you

The OP does not share that as being part of the story. So it is dubious for more reasons than I have already given in this thread since such stories can be generated to incite interests to their church which is in actuality, serving apostasy when it involves believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation; 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & John 4:1-6.

 

[1689Dave]

But only those he laid hands on had the gifts. Prove this wrong or you will never understand the NT or the Holy Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

There is no point. For you to say only and yet give 2 exceptions, defeats your conclusion of using "only" now does it? Until you have it written as taught as such in any epistle to the churches, you are taking the history of the early church in developing a doctrine that is not taught so readily to the church as you are doing it. Has the Lord made you aware of that?

You need scripture to prove your baseless claims.

 

[canadyjd]

What you are missing, is, The gifts only came through an apostle's hands. No apostles = no gifts. You need to prove this wrong or remain seriously crippled in your bible understanding.

You should show the scripture that says Spiritual gifts are ONLY given by an Apostle and laying on of hands. You need to prove your assertion before claiming someone else is “crippled” in their Bible understanding.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

If a brother in Christ bears testimony of a supernatural manifestation of God Holy Spirit in the proclamation of the gospel, why not rejoice?

because some can't, as their "theology" does not allow them to

 

[Hark]

You need scripture to prove your baseless claims.

But only those he laid hands on had the gifts. Prove this wrong or you will never understand the NT or the Holy Spirit.

I just refer you to those 2 exceptions that you found in scripture.

But if you want scripture to prove otherwise.. okay.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No laying of hands there.

The Lord's hand is not short that He needs an apostle to lay hands to save someone when they finally do call on Him to be saved.

Kind of like how some that err say you have to be water baptized to receive the Holy Ghost. Not.

You kind of have to weigh how you are applying scripture from Acts because scripture in the N.T. does not limit salvation by only of the laying on of the Apostles' hands when by one of your 2 exception; believing in Jesus Christ is how we are saved.

Even Jesus explained to Nicodemus that when one is born again, you do not know where it is coming from or where it is going; hence no outward sign when one is saved, but when & how is after His ascension which is after His crucifixion that by believing in Him is how we are saved and hence born again.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?...13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[canadyjd]

You should show the scripture that says Spiritual gifts are ONLY given by an Apostle and laying on of hands. You need to prove your assertion before claiming someone else is “crippled” in their Bible understanding.

peace to you

A quick look at 1 Cor 12:8-11, reveals the gifts given “by the Spirit” at least 6 times with not a single mention of an Apostle or laying on hands.

Your assertion has been disproven. I’ll accept your apology as soon as you muster enough humility to admit you are wrong.

peace to you

 

[Lodic]

I agree that it is not a salvation issue and I agree that our unity is in Christ, but I point out that when we are not all speaking the same thing nor holding to the same judgment, is where modern day tongue speakers divide the body of Christ, because modern day tongues is usually associated with having another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues apart from salvation moment. That means they divide themselves from this testimony that we are all supposed to share below as they claim another baptism and thus another drink of the One Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Proof that tongues was never meant for private use is here in the following verses below.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

So believers are reading in between the lines in 1 Corinthians 14 chapter as if tongues has all those benefits of self edification, the Spirit praying to God, giving thanks, & worship . and yet for all those supposed benefits, they do not know what benefit is being done... and yet they just read like they have no need of anyone in the body of Christ as they can do it all by tongues.

So tongues is an apostate issue because it departs from the faith in Jesus Christ when tongues is gained by another calling.

You make a good point, @Hark. It's ironic that spiritual gifts that once edified the Church now divide us. Even "Spirit-filled" believers (Pentecostals, Assembly of God, etc.) should acknowledge that not all have any gifts (1 Cor. 12:28-30). Often, when they focus too much on tongues, prophecies, etc., they overlook the very gift that we are told to desire more than all the others - love. Finally, to one of your points, too many of us "Spirit-filled" Christians are ignorant of the Biblical use of these gifts - despite Paul's admonition in 1 Cor. 12:1.

Back to the story that began this thread, it seems to fit more along the lines of Acts 2 than 1 Corinthians 12. I tend to believe the story, and I trust that God has in own purpose for these unusual incidents.

 

[Hark]

You make a good point, @Hark. It's ironic that spiritual gifts that once edified the Church now divide us. Even "Spirit-filled" believers (Pentecostals, Assembly of God, etc.) should acknowledge that not all have any gifts (1 Cor. 12:28-30). Often, when they focus too much on tongues, prophecies, etc., they overlook the very gift that we are told to desire more than all the others - love. Finally, to one of your points, too many of us "Spirit-filled" Christians are ignorant of the Biblical use of these gifts - despite Paul's admonition in 1 Cor. 12:1.

Back to the story that began this thread, it seems to fit more along the lines of Acts 2 than 1 Corinthians 12. I tend to believe the story, and I trust that God has in own purpose for these unusual incidents.

The problem here is that it does not really align. 1 Corinthians 12 has to be taken in account for what had happened at Pentecost as far as outreach ministry goes.

For one to speak to another believing it to be in his language & think the other is speaking in his language back to him & vise versa is what makes it dubious and hardly relating to Acts 2. Remember, the foreign devout Jews from all nations testified that they were hearing the Galileans speak in their native tongue while some near by did not hear it in their native tongue but assumed they were drunk.

I am sure that somewhere else in that crowd, they would have heard one of the many disciples speak in their native tongue, but that was what those who heard it otherwise as thinking they were drunk. And yet they were all unbelievers at that time before Peter stood up & preached the gospel to them. So to say that the story seems to be fit Acts 2, is requiring more discernment.

The story has them both as believers and not about one preaching the gospel one to the other. They were talking to each other believing they are doing so in his language and yet understanding the other in his language and vise versa. If that was really the case, as they claim they did not know how they were talking to each other supernaturally, then how did they come to know?

So it is dubious.

 

[Lodic]

The problem here is that it does not really align. 1 Corinthians 12 has to be taken in account for what had happened at Pentecost as far as outreach ministry goes.

For one to speak to another believing it to be in his language & think the other is speaking in his language back to him & vise versa is what makes it dubious and hardly relating to Acts 2. Remember, the foreign devout Jews from all nations testified that they were hearing the Galileans speak in their native tongue while some near by did not hear it in their native tongue but assumed they were drunk.

I am sure that somewhere else in that crowd, they would have heard one of the many disciples speak in their native tongue, but that was what those who heard it otherwise as thinking they were drunk. And yet they were all unbelievers at that time before Peter stood up & preached the gospel to them. So to say that the story seems to be fit Acts 2, is requiring more discernment.

The story has them both as believers and not about one preaching the gospel one to the other. They were talking to each other believing they are doing so in his language and yet understanding the other in his language and vise versa. If that was really the case, as they claim they did not know how they were talking to each other supernaturally, then how did they come to know?

So it is dubious.

Agreed, this is definitely not an exact replica of the Pentecost experience. However, the conversations seem to have given God glory.

Good question regarding how they realized they were hearing in their native language. I wonder how many conversations they had before they made the discovery. Even with these questions, I believe this to be a real supernatural experience. Glad you ask questions, as they help us to be critical.