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Where is Hell?
- Thread starter 3AngelsMom
- Start date
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I really do feel like this verse makes it clear that both groups were listening.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him
That kind of makes it clear, if they weren't there how could they have 'heard all these things'?
The 'THEM' in question is the WHOLE group mentioned at the beginning of the passage.
It is as clear as crystal to me.
God Bless
neal4christ
New Member
I absolutely agree they were there. But couldn't Jesus have been speaking specifically to the tax collectors and sinners with the Pharisees and scribes around, hearing His words? There are other possibilities besides the one you are "crystal clear" about. Also, who is the "them" in 16:15? If you think that the first them is the whole group in Ch. 15, would you not agree that the "them" in 16:15 is the Pharisees and scribes. So He does change the way He is addressing the people.
The whole thing about this passage too is does Hades (word used in Greek here) = hell. I still am not very clear on this whole thing as well.
Why do you ask "where" hell is? Isn't it enough to know that there is a hell?
Neal
[ January 17, 2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I would like to hear what you understand this to mean.
Neal</font>[/QUOTE]I would love to:
The Rich Man and Lazarus
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of sores. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." Luke 16:19-21.
Who was the symbolic rich man? The Jews had been blessed above measure by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind. They had received "the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Romans 9:4. Only a Jew would pray to "Father Abraham," as we find the rich man doing later in the story. The Jewish nation was clearly represented by this character.
By contrast, Lazarus symbolized all those people in spiritual poverty--the Gentiles--with whom the Israelites were to share their heritage. The words of Isaiah were well known to the Jews, "I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:6.
Unfortunately, the Jews had not shared their spiritual wealth with the Gentiles at all. Instead, they considered them as "dogs" who would have to be satisfied with the spiritual crumbs falling from their masters' tables. The metaphor was known. Jesus had used it before, testing the faith of the Canaanite woman, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." She responded accordingly: "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' tables." Matthew 15:26, 27.
The rich Jews had hoarded the truth, and in so doing had corrupted themselves. Only moments before relating this parable, Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees for their spiritual conceit, "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15. What was to be the result of this terrible conceit?
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16:26.
The Jews had enjoyed "the good life" while on earth but had done nothing to bless or enrich their neighbors. No further reward was due. "Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger." Luke 6:24, 25.
Conversely, the poor in spirit, symbolized by Lazarus, would inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Gentiles who hungered and thirsted after righteousness would be filled. The "dogs" and sinners, so despised by the self-righteous Pharisees, would enter heaven before they would, "Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." Matthew 21:31.
The parable concludes with the rich man begging for his brethren to be warned against sharing his fate. Asking Abraham to send Lazarus on this mission, he alleges that "if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." Luke 16:30. Abraham replies, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Verse 31.
Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of "Moses and the prophets." The miracle of raising the real-life Lazarus from the dead soon afterwards confirmed the accuracy of Jesus' conclusion. One did rise from the dead, yet the brothers of the "rich man" did not repent. In fact, the Pharisees even plotted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection. His very life was a reminder to them of their own hypocrisy.
This parable shows us that having worldly wealth and riches does not denote divine favor, and that if someone cannot see God from His Word, the Holy Bible, not even someone who has been dead, could convince them.
That's my take on it.
I think it is beautiful how Jesus made every point into a parable. Makes you think about it.
That's why He kept saying 'Let him who has an ear HEAR, what the Spirit says to the Church'
God Bless
neal4christ
New Member
I went back to see what I was originally addressing, I forgot! 
Neal
So you say He was speaking to all at first, but it is clear that He changes focus to just the Pharisees and scribes in 16:15. Thus He changes His pattern and the group He was addressing.
Neal
neal4christ
New Member
Thanks for your take! It makes sense to me. But why would that take away from there being a hell?
Neal
Neal
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Ok, this is getting confusing. WHY does it matter WHO He was talking to? My point is that He began a sermon with a parable, and broke in the middle to reprimand the Pharisees. He then picked right back up where He left off, and went into some more parables.
The whole group heard Him. He was adressing the Pharisees when He rebuked them.
Are you trying to say that the "Rich man Lazarus" parable/ tale was for the Pharasees only?
Please tell me what you are getting at.
In my original comment that you keep posting, my point, which I thought I made clear, was that Jesus did not LEAVE where He was, and there was no note that the group left Him alone with the Disciples. In that case He could have been relating a non parable, because He did speak plainly to the Disciples. But according to the text as a whole none of that took place. He started a sermon and finished it. All, BUT His reprimanding the Pharisees, were parables.
The continuity of that passage is very aparent to me, but I guess that is just my take on it!
God Bless.
The whole group heard Him. He was adressing the Pharisees when He rebuked them.
Are you trying to say that the "Rich man Lazarus" parable/ tale was for the Pharasees only?
Please tell me what you are getting at.
In my original comment that you keep posting, my point, which I thought I made clear, was that Jesus did not LEAVE where He was, and there was no note that the group left Him alone with the Disciples. In that case He could have been relating a non parable, because He did speak plainly to the Disciples. But according to the text as a whole none of that took place. He started a sermon and finished it. All, BUT His reprimanding the Pharisees, were parables.
The continuity of that passage is very aparent to me, but I guess that is just my take on it!
God Bless.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
It doesn't, remember why this argument started?
The Rich Man and Lazarus PARABLE.
We were debating if it was a parable or a real story.
I still think it is a parable.
neal4christ
New Member
My whole point was just to show you that this above statement was not totally accurate. He did not speak to the same group throughout the whole sermon as you state here. I was just pointing that out, that's all! Easy, wasn't it!
I guess all that got a little more complicated that what it needed to be!
I can see you take on it and it makes sense. I still see it as a story, but oh well. Since it doesn't affect whether there is a hell or not, carry on!
I wasn't trying to argue with you, just pointing out what you said was not absolutely accurate in that one spot!
Sorry for the confusion!
Neal
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Me2,
What religion is that?
I have never heard that kind of doctrine before!
Jesus saves us from the penalty for sin.
He died, therefore defeating death.
We aren't literally 'saved' yet. We have the hope of His return, which THEN He will save us from death.
From 'the second death' in the Lake Of Fire.
It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, judgement.
Once judged the person will either spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth, or will die the 'second death' in the Lake of Fire.
Jesus died once for all, YES, but if a person does not have HIS blood on their record in the Book of Life, then their sin record will be what is judged.
The penalty for sin is Death.
If I have the Blood on my record, then NO SIN will be there and I will live.
BUT anyone who did not ask Jesus for forgiveness and recieve Him as their Savior, their record still shows, and they must suffer the consequences.
They are not being punished for something someone else did. They made a choice. The path they chose was not life. It was death.
God Bless.
What religion is that?
I have never heard that kind of doctrine before!
Jesus saves us from the penalty for sin.
He died, therefore defeating death.
We aren't literally 'saved' yet. We have the hope of His return, which THEN He will save us from death.
From 'the second death' in the Lake Of Fire.
It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, judgement.
Once judged the person will either spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth, or will die the 'second death' in the Lake of Fire.
Jesus died once for all, YES, but if a person does not have HIS blood on their record in the Book of Life, then their sin record will be what is judged.
The penalty for sin is Death.
If I have the Blood on my record, then NO SIN will be there and I will live.
BUT anyone who did not ask Jesus for forgiveness and recieve Him as their Savior, their record still shows, and they must suffer the consequences.
They are not being punished for something someone else did. They made a choice. The path they chose was not life. It was death.
God Bless.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
No problem,
Ok, so to the original point of where is hell.
I think what I really want to get clear is where AND when is hell.
There seems to be some confusion between different denominations as to the nature of hell and when and where it will take place.
Some think it is NOW, that people are there burning now, and the place keeps getting fuller every day.
Others think that no one is there, because it doesn't exist and that the lake of fire is the 'hell' spoken of in the Bible, and that will take place after the judgement after the 2nd coming.
And yet others think that there is both, that there are people in hell now, and that when Jesus comes back He is going to let them out to judge them and then cast them into the lake of fire.
Which is right? because all the people I have spoken to have scripture to back it up.
Take it easy on me on that one.
I tried really hard not to make any factual misrepresentations in that one.
I am not a big bad Seminary student like you, I am just a mom and a wife.
[ January 17, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
Ok, so to the original point of where is hell.
I think what I really want to get clear is where AND when is hell.
There seems to be some confusion between different denominations as to the nature of hell and when and where it will take place.
Some think it is NOW, that people are there burning now, and the place keeps getting fuller every day.
Others think that no one is there, because it doesn't exist and that the lake of fire is the 'hell' spoken of in the Bible, and that will take place after the judgement after the 2nd coming.
And yet others think that there is both, that there are people in hell now, and that when Jesus comes back He is going to let them out to judge them and then cast them into the lake of fire.
Which is right? because all the people I have spoken to have scripture to back it up.
Take it easy on me on that one.
I tried really hard not to make any factual misrepresentations in that one.
I am not a big bad Seminary student like you, I am just a mom and a wife.
[ January 17, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
neal4christ
New Member
I am sorry, I was just pointing something out! Actually, I think it has little to do with my seminary and more to do with my engineering background. I am like you, I don't like to have any factual misrepresentations, but I know I do sometimes, I am only human!
Now I understand what you are getting at. It was a little unclear from your original post.
I think a lot has to do with ones views on how some things are translated in the Bible. In the KJV, you see hell everywhere, OT and NT. In newer translations, you don't see it as much, but you start to see 'Sheol' in the OT and 'Hades' in the NT popping up. So what are these? Many will say the grave, in fact some translations translate like that in the OT (the NIV).
There are some who will say that Sheol was a place for all the dead in the OT, but when Christ died and was resurrected that He took all the saints with Him to Heaven. So all that is left there now is condemned people. From the Lazarus story (or parable) many see that Hades is a place of torment now('hell' in the KJV here is the Greek word 'hades').
Others will say that 'Sheol' and 'Hades' are just other terms for hell.
Still others will say that they are just words for the grave, where all the dead are.
Still others will say that those apart from God will just stop existing one day.
And there are still many other views.
So what is right?????? I don't know! There is much confusion over this subject now, especially since many were used to seeing hell so much in the KJV.
I tend to lean towards the true 'hell' as the lake of fire referred to in Revelation. Hades (same as Sheol, but purged of the saints by Christ) is the holding place for those who will one day face judgement. It is a place of torment, but not of the likes that will be in the lake of fire. The people in Hades are not totally separated from God (Ps. 139:8; Jonah 2:2), but in hell they will be absolutely separated from God. Torment may be physical in some way and it will definitely be in a spiritual sense. Where is hell? I have no idea.
Sorry if all this is confusing, but I have not worked it all out myself. I could give you some verses if you want to show you how I come to this.
Neal
[ January 17, 2003, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
I am like you, I don't like to have any factual misrepresentations, but I know I do sometimes, I am only human!Now I understand what you are getting at. It was a little unclear from your original post.
I think a lot has to do with ones views on how some things are translated in the Bible. In the KJV, you see hell everywhere, OT and NT. In newer translations, you don't see it as much, but you start to see 'Sheol' in the OT and 'Hades' in the NT popping up. So what are these? Many will say the grave, in fact some translations translate like that in the OT (the NIV).
There are some who will say that Sheol was a place for all the dead in the OT, but when Christ died and was resurrected that He took all the saints with Him to Heaven. So all that is left there now is condemned people. From the Lazarus story (or parable) many see that Hades is a place of torment now('hell' in the KJV here is the Greek word 'hades').
Others will say that 'Sheol' and 'Hades' are just other terms for hell.
Still others will say that they are just words for the grave, where all the dead are.
Still others will say that those apart from God will just stop existing one day.
And there are still many other views.
So what is right??????
I don't know! There is much confusion over this subject now, especially since many were used to seeing hell so much in the KJV.I tend to lean towards the true 'hell' as the lake of fire referred to in Revelation. Hades (same as Sheol, but purged of the saints by Christ) is the holding place for those who will one day face judgement. It is a place of torment, but not of the likes that will be in the lake of fire. The people in Hades are not totally separated from God (Ps. 139:8; Jonah 2:2), but in hell they will be absolutely separated from God. Torment may be physical in some way and it will definitely be in a spiritual sense. Where is hell? I have no idea.
Sorry if all this is confusing, but I have not worked it all out myself. I could give you some verses if you want to show you how I come to this.
Neal
[ January 17, 2003, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
CatholicConvert
New Member
May I step in here and murk up the waters a bit?
Suppose this parable has to do with the eternal state of the nation of Israel? (That's one idea I have heard set forth -- national Israel is the rich man, given all manner of riches by God, and we Gentiles were the beggars asking for the leftovers)
Or, how about this one: until Christ finished His work in Heaven, taking His precious Blood to the Temple "not made with hands" in Heaven, and performed YOM KIPPUR up there as the Great High Priest, no person could go to Heaven. Therefore, the picture in the parable is that of those who are in the "waiting rooms" of eternity.
The rich man was in Hades. The poor man was in Paradise.
(But a question arises for me on this....the rich man is not called "unrighteous" necessarily, and the poor man is not called "righteous". If the above were true, is the parable saying that all rich go to perdition and all poor go to bliss in the afterlife? Hmmmmmmmmmmm....)
In fact, since the parable does not discuss the "works" of either one, which is the standard by which Jesus will judge all men (John 5: 29) then perhaps this is not meant to be understood as relating to men at all.
Hmmmmmmm.........???
Just some random cogitations.
(I think -- therefore I am confused )
Brother Ed
Suppose this parable has to do with the eternal state of the nation of Israel? (That's one idea I have heard set forth -- national Israel is the rich man, given all manner of riches by God, and we Gentiles were the beggars asking for the leftovers)
Or, how about this one: until Christ finished His work in Heaven, taking His precious Blood to the Temple "not made with hands" in Heaven, and performed YOM KIPPUR up there as the Great High Priest, no person could go to Heaven. Therefore, the picture in the parable is that of those who are in the "waiting rooms" of eternity.
The rich man was in Hades. The poor man was in Paradise.
(But a question arises for me on this....the rich man is not called "unrighteous" necessarily, and the poor man is not called "righteous". If the above were true, is the parable saying that all rich go to perdition and all poor go to bliss in the afterlife? Hmmmmmmmmmmm....)
In fact, since the parable does not discuss the "works" of either one, which is the standard by which Jesus will judge all men (John 5: 29) then perhaps this is not meant to be understood as relating to men at all.
Hmmmmmmm.........???
Just some random cogitations.
(I think -- therefore I am confused
)Brother Ed
When Jesus spoke in parables he also gave the interpretation for the parable. He did not here.
No where in his parables do we find any interpretation where he was ever talking about Israel in particular. Saying this is stretching it very far and long.
People don't want to deal with the issue of Hell.
They don't want to believe it exists so they deny the scriptures concerning Hell. They create a fantasy in their minds that it does not exist.
They argue and fight against this belief but no matter what nothing removes the truth that there is a Hell and that it exists.
How can anyone look at the atrocities man has committed against one another and choose to believe there is no Hell?
Has not the Bible told us from Genesis to Revelations that yes God is a God of love but that he has a flip side and that flip side is a side of Judgement and did not Paul warn us about questioning these things. What right do we the creation have to question the Creator on what he chooses to do? God has given man an escape from this place but if man rejects Christ then the blame does not lie with God but with mankind.
Mankind wants to live in sin. Man wants to create their own beliefs system. We want to create our own plan of salvation. We want EASY BELIEVISM.
People argue whether or not Baptism is necessary for salvation. They argue whether or not we have to obey any commandments. They say if we do then it is not grace. I say that just the fact that God deals with man at all is GRACE. So what if we would have to be baptized as part of salvation. So what? What ifot
we do have to obey commandments? So what? God does not have to save anyone at all. To me I could care less if God told us we all have to stand on her head everyday to be saved. At least we do have a way of escape.
MEE 2: I am sorry but I get sick and tired of people who whine that God is supposed to be a God of love and mercy so how can anyone believe he would send anyone to Hell. How could he not send people to Hell with the atrocities men commit against one another. The millions of Jews that were slaughtered by Hitler or those people who were sawn asunder by the Taliban in a sports arena.
God hates sin and he has given us a remedy for it and no God created Hell originally for the Devil and his angels but God did not promise salvation to everyone who refuses to believe.
Mee2 you are talking something very dangerous. You will have to stand before God and explain to him why you would tell people there is no Hell and mislead them. I would not want the blood of others on my hands by leading them astray.
No where in his parables do we find any interpretation where he was ever talking about Israel in particular. Saying this is stretching it very far and long.
People don't want to deal with the issue of Hell.
They don't want to believe it exists so they deny the scriptures concerning Hell. They create a fantasy in their minds that it does not exist.
They argue and fight against this belief but no matter what nothing removes the truth that there is a Hell and that it exists.
How can anyone look at the atrocities man has committed against one another and choose to believe there is no Hell?
Has not the Bible told us from Genesis to Revelations that yes God is a God of love but that he has a flip side and that flip side is a side of Judgement and did not Paul warn us about questioning these things. What right do we the creation have to question the Creator on what he chooses to do? God has given man an escape from this place but if man rejects Christ then the blame does not lie with God but with mankind.
Mankind wants to live in sin. Man wants to create their own beliefs system. We want to create our own plan of salvation. We want EASY BELIEVISM.
People argue whether or not Baptism is necessary for salvation. They argue whether or not we have to obey any commandments. They say if we do then it is not grace. I say that just the fact that God deals with man at all is GRACE. So what if we would have to be baptized as part of salvation. So what? What ifot
we do have to obey commandments? So what? God does not have to save anyone at all. To me I could care less if God told us we all have to stand on her head everyday to be saved. At least we do have a way of escape.
MEE 2: I am sorry but I get sick and tired of people who whine that God is supposed to be a God of love and mercy so how can anyone believe he would send anyone to Hell. How could he not send people to Hell with the atrocities men commit against one another. The millions of Jews that were slaughtered by Hitler or those people who were sawn asunder by the Taliban in a sports arena.
God hates sin and he has given us a remedy for it and no God created Hell originally for the Devil and his angels but God did not promise salvation to everyone who refuses to believe.
Mee2 you are talking something very dangerous. You will have to stand before God and explain to him why you would tell people there is no Hell and mislead them. I would not want the blood of others on my hands by leading them astray.
There is no CREDIBLE witnesses to the FACT of the physical existence of Hell.
When there is one...Ill believe it...maybe.
The fact that the bible is sketchy on a lot of subjects, only points to the real fact that God is demanding one to believe by faith..what is real, and what is not.
For God So Loved the world...did he really?
or maybe He Really just loved 5%..
and he would punish the other 95% (forever)
God Commands you to love your enemies....For whatever the reasons, or the autrocities.
Do you think he was just kidding around ?
When there is one...Ill believe it...maybe.
The fact that the bible is sketchy on a lot of subjects, only points to the real fact that God is demanding one to believe by faith..what is real, and what is not.
For God So Loved the world...did he really?
or maybe He Really just loved 5%..
and he would punish the other 95% (forever)
God Commands you to love your enemies....For whatever the reasons, or the autrocities.
Do you think he was just kidding around ?
neal4christ
New Member
I think you did just that Ed!
I had never heard of a couple of those ideas!
Neal
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I kinda thought that is what we were doing here.....
You said Jesus explained all His parables but didn't explain this one....
Could you please show scripture for the explination of each parable?
God Bless.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I know this isn't directed at me, but in some ways I agree with Me2, so I would like to respond.
How do YOU know that you are right and we are wrong? WHAT IF, You were the one misleading people and it was YOU who will stand before God with their blood on YOUR hands?
We just don't know yet do we?
Be careful how you throw the Word around at people. It is not ammuntion.
Speak the truth in Love.
None of us have died, so none of us know for sure what happens after death. One parable/tale, cannot dismiss the 50+ verses I have found that speak of death as a sleep. ONE parable only mentined by one of the Gospels, cannot lead me to believe all the doctrines of purgatory and paradise and the pre-Crucifixion saints going there until Jesus died.
It just doesn't add up.
Telling someone there is not a place of eternal torment does not take away from the Truth of the Gospel. It isn't one of those 'elemental' truths that MUST be believed in order to receive the Gift of Salvation.
God Bless
neal4christ
New Member
Just an observation, he could not stand before God with blood on his hands if you are right, because there would be no hell, so no loss and blood!
What is the point of the Gospel then? There has to be bad news if there is good news.
Neal
[ January 17, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Neal,
To clarify, there is a punishment for the wicked.
The Truth of the Gospel is not 'seek me or get hell'.
Otherwise Jesus would be using scare tactics to get people to love Him. That is not the nature of God.
The Salvation of Jesus Christ is to be saved from DEATH.
There IS a punishment for the wicked.
I do not serve God out of fear of that punishment, but out of Love for Him.
God Bless
To clarify, there is a punishment for the wicked.
The Truth of the Gospel is not 'seek me or get hell'.
Otherwise Jesus would be using scare tactics to get people to love Him. That is not the nature of God.
The Salvation of Jesus Christ is to be saved from DEATH.
There IS a punishment for the wicked.
I do not serve God out of fear of that punishment, but out of Love for Him.
God Bless