Where is Hell?

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
3AngelsMom

Does the Spirit that dwells in me (the Holy Spirit) bear witness with MY spirit, well, NO because I don't have MY own spirit, it is ALL God's spirit that not only dwells in me in the form of the Holy Spirit, but also is the force that makes me a living soul.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Spirit- BOTH times - 4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}

So to answer your question OF COURSE the 2 agree, for they are one. They agree that I am a child of God.

Just to show IN context the verse you quoted:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Actually - the text in Romans 8 would indicate the act of "bearing witness WITH our spirit" - the two are very different. One is the Holy Spirit - God the Holy Spirit and the other is not.

This is not "God the Holy Spirit bearing witness with Himself that we are the children of God".

Rather the text shows that WE cry out "Abba Father" (a child calling to their father) - because God the Holy Spirit causes us to do so.

So it is in fact God the Holy Spirit bearing witness with OUR Spirit - the one IN us crying out "Abba Father" and that is lead to do so by God the Holy Spirit.

Though this particular point has nothing to do with where hell is.

In Christ,

Bob

No, I think the topic has officially been changed to "Running around in circles with DHK"

 

[DHK]

3AngelsMom,
Neal was asking a very basic question. Let's put it another way. In the simplest way possible please define "death."
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

I am pretty sure that I have exhausted that question.

However, no one has answered mine:

Define cessation and separation in light of death.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Originally posted by BobRyan: "DHK
But Matt 18 teaches us about the principle of 'Forgiveness revoked', so even being born twice does not mean you may not die twice."

Originally posted by DHK in response to above:
"God does revoke forgiveness[?] Is that your God, a God that goes back on His word, takes back His forgiveness, is vindictive and cruel to His children[?] I am glad that my Heavenly Father is not so."

DHK, if your god and your father does not do as Jesus Christ said "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses" then your god is an idol that you conjured up in your own mind.

[ January 22, 2003, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
I am pretty sure that I have exhausted that question.

However, no one has answered mine:

Define cessation and separation in light of death.

This is where you are confused. Death is not cessation. Death means separation. Aside from the second death there are three kinds of death described in the Bible.

1. Physical Death. Separation of the body from the spirit. The spirit does not cease to be, it is merely separated from the body. That is physical death, described in James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--The body without the spirit is dead; the body separated from the spirit is dead.

2. Spiritual Death. Separation from God, spiritually because of sin. Sin separates us from God. Eph.2:1

2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--Paul, writing to the Ephesian believers, says that they were once dead. Was he speaking of a physical death? No, it was a spiritual death--they were spiritually dead. Their spirits were dead--not annihilated, not ceased to be, but dead, or separated from God. Death means separation. Their spirits were separated from God in their unsaved state. But now, Paul says, you are made alive. They were made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit when they were saved. Their spirit became alive unto God. They are no longer dead (separated from God), but alive (having Christ dwelling in them).

3. Eternal death. This is being eternally separated from God. God is just. If there is eternal life, there must also be eternal death. Romans 6:23,

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--In this verse Paul is contrasting life with death. He speaks of eternal life, and he is also speaking of eternal death; eternal separation from God in a place called Hell. Death is separation. Those who reject Christ as their Saviour are doomed to be eternally separated from God, and as it tells us in Rev.20:10-15, it will be in a lake of fire forever and ever.

This is what death means: separation. It is not annihilation, cessation, but separation, and it is used at least in three different ways in the Bible: physical separation, spiritual separation, eternal separation--death
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

When the spirit of a man leaves the body, the body ceases to live, and is, therefore, dead. (James 2:26) Then will the dust (the body) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7) And God shall send it to either paradise or torment, as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. How could Abraham and the rich man converse if their spirit had ceased to exist? Also, how could Jesus teach the following?

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mark 12:26-27)

Now, that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead as concerning the flesh is obvious - but that they are alive as concerning the spirit is obvious as well.

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

How am I confused? I asked a question.

Give a defonition of the words so that I can answer Neal's question.

Define:

Cessation

Separation

How is that confusing?

 

[neal4christ]

I think DHK summed it up pretty well as to what I was getting at.

Cessation: to stop, no longer continue

Separation: the state of being separated, make a distinction between, be apart from

You seem to view death as cessation. I view it as separation.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Neal,

I view death as a form of sleep. That is what the Bible depicts in OVER 50 different places.

SO the answer is NEITHER.

The 2nd death however is cessation as you call it. For NO man will be resurrected after the Judgement.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

If the wicked are 'separated' from their bodies how are we going to be able to SEE them tormented, and walk on the ashes of the carcases that we saw as an abhorence?

Also, if the wicked are being tormented IN THE PRESECE of the Lamb, then they are not separated from Him are they?

Nice analogy, but it doesn't add up when compared to the whole of Scripture.

Take it easy.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

If the wicked are 'separated' from their bodies how are we going to be able to SEE them tormented, and walk on the ashes of the carcases that we saw as an abhorence?

I don't know what you are talking about. Give a Scriptural reference please.

Also, if the wicked are being tormented IN THE PRESECE of the Lamb, then they are not separated from Him are they?

The Great White Throne Judgement is a one time event. We in our finite minds do not understand time in eternity. Eternity has no time. Death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That doesn't mean that the Lamb of God or anyone else for that purpose, will be gazing on it forever.
Do you also have a problem with God's promise: "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Nice analogy, but it doesn't add up when compared to the whole of Scripture.

There are no analogies here, only Scripture.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

I view death as a form of sleep. That is what the Bible depicts in OVER 50 different places.

Did you ever think about sleep being a Jewish idiom for death? So when the Bible says a man 'knew' his wife or 'lay' with his wife, it is talking about actual knowing and laying down? It is not sex? You have to be consistent if you start interpreting that way.

SO the answer is NEITHER.

I still disagree.

The 2nd death however is cessation as you call it. For NO man will be resurrected after the Judgement.

Totally disagree. Do you have any proof of this cessation?

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
[QB]Did you ever think about sleep being a Jewish idiom for death? So when the Bible says a man 'knew' his wife or 'lay' with his wife, it is talking about actual knowing and laying down? It is not sex? You have to be consistent if you start interpreting that way.

An idiom? Are you serious? Do you know what that means?
On the sex part, that would be God calling it that, considering that the BIBLE is INSPIRED!! The same applies to the sleep of death. GOD told them to write it that way because death is a sleep. It is in the Bible OVER 50 times. Do you want me to put them all in here? Will you believe the Bible?

Do you have any proof of this cessation?

That they will never live again after the judgement in the Lake of Fire? Of course.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Let's see:

Stubble
Burn them up
Neither root nor branch
Tread down the wicked
ASHES under feet
IN THE DAY He does it

Stubble that is burnt up with neither root nor branch that can be tread down under our feet in the form of ashes IN THE DAY that God does this.

Now unless you want to accept the 1000/1 day principle, you must admit that this passage is pretty clear that it WILL go out. Ashes are the result of fire that is out. If it is still burning it would be embers.

Plus, according to Revelation, just after God finishes the judgement He creates a new Heaven and New Earth. Now unless He is planting a brand spankin new earth out in space, we can assume that He is not making a separate earth from this one. Especially since we are going to trample the wicked's ashes and then grow up as the calves of the stall. Sounds like eternity is starting in that prophecy.

Also-

Revelation 20:12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The sea gave up the dead? If they were being resurrected at this time, they were lost, therefore shouldn't they be in HELL? See, here is just ONE of the inconsistencies with that doctrine.

Death- people who have died and are not buried in a grave. ie ship wrecks, cremations, burn victims, etc.
Hell- the grave. People who were buried. In the ground.

So at the end of chapter 20 all the wicked are in the Lake of Fire. What happens next?

Revelation 21: 1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Remember that there were no 'chapter' separations in the original, so chapter 20 and 21 ran right into one another. After the scene of the Lake of Fire, John immediately saw the NEW EARTH. Along with a promise from GOD. That HE will wipe away the tears, and there will not be anymore sorry or pain or crying.

Now tell me, if my parents were lost people and I had just watched them get thrown into the Lake of Fire, don't you think I would be sad? If all those people are burning, how could He say that there is no more pain? Don't you think that fire would be painful?

I believe that promise is true. There won't be anyone burning after the fire goes out. NO MORE PAIN.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

Okay, I give up talking to you. You have your mind made up and I have mine made up. I agree to disagree with you. If you want to carry on, you will have to wait a while. I am very busy and don't have time to devote to arguing with you. You say that I am flawed in my thinking and I say that you have some very 'iffy' theology. There is no fruit that is coming of this, so I will remove myself from it. I again just have to wonder what in the world is the point of your discussion. Oh well, have a good time talking about it.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

I answer your question with BIBLE and you want to agree to disagree?

*3AngelsMom slowly walks away shaking her head*

 

[neal4christ]

I answer your question with BIBLE and you want to agree to disagree?

I could say the same to you. And I have shown where you have already misapplied Scripture before.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

How do you misapply something so simple as this?

Malachi 4

1. For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
4. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

What else could it be talking about?

Seriously.

 

[neal4christ]

I am talking of your quote from I Peter to say that a thousand years IS a day.

Like it or not, there are passages which seem to refer to torment and there are those that seem to refer to annihilation. You interpret as a whole differently than I interpret them as a whole. Thus, I agree to disagree. I don't claim to be God. Do you? I try to understand to the best of my ability. Again, I am not going to continue on with you now. If you would like, I will come back to it when I have time later. I simply do not have the resources or time to devote to this, there are other things I have to do and other issues that are a priority to me over this. Despite what you think, I don't go scaring people into heaven. However, I fear that you will lull people out of it.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

WHA???

How could I lull people out of Heaven?

That's really silly Neal.

Go tend to your stuff, no one said you have to respond right away.

I usually take hours, haven't you noticed?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

An idiom? Are you serious? Do you know what that means?
GOD told them to write it that way because death is a sleep. It is in the Bible OVER 50 times. Do you want me to put them all in here? Will you believe the Bible?

The word "sleep" or "slept" is used 131 times in Scripture. You say 50 times it refers to death. In those verses that it does (which is comparatively little over all), it always refers to the body. The word sleep is used inferring thart the body will rise again. It is separated from the spirit which still lives. The body, dead, will sleep in death, and await the resurrection, when it will be joined again with its spirit.

Do you have any proof of this cessation?

That they will never live again after the judgement in the Lake of Fire? Of course.
Let's see:

Stubble
Burn them up
Neither root nor branch
Tread down the wicked
ASHES under feet
IN THE DAY He does it

Stubble that is burnt up with neither root nor branch that can be tread down under our feet in the form of ashes IN THE DAY that God does this.

Now unless you want to accept the 1000/1 day principle, you must admit that this passage is pretty clear that it WILL go out. Ashes are the result of fire that is out. If it is still burning it would be embers.

Nothing like taking Scripture out of context. Malachi 4, is talking of the "Day of the Lord," which takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period. The Lord will come, and the Jews will defeat their enemies and trample them down--literally. The Millennial Kingdom will then be set up where Christ will rule for a thousand years. This chapter has nothing to do with you. It is Old Testament; Malachi is speaking to the nation of Israel.

Plus, according to Revelation, just after God finishes the judgement He creates a new Heaven and New Earth. Now unless He is planting a brand spankin new earth out in space, we can assume that He is not making a separate earth from this one. Especially since we are going to trample the wicked's ashes and then grow up as the calves of the stall. Sounds like eternity is starting in that prophecy.

I prefer to believe God, not you, on this one. When God says He is going to create a new heaven and a new earth that is exactly what He means. Please don't call Him a liar. Peter says that this one will be destroyed with fire. (2Pet.3:10-12).

The sea gave up the dead? If they were being resurrected at this time, they were lost, therefore shouldn't they be in HELL? See, here is just ONE of the inconsistencies with that doctrine.

Death- people who have died and are not buried in a grave. ie ship wrecks, cremations, burn victims, etc.
Hell- the grave. People who were buried. In the ground.

So at the end of chapter 20 all the wicked are in the Lake of Fire. What happens next?

The sea--figurative: of the masses of mankind.
Death--referring to the dead in their resurrected bodies, as the second resurrection has taken place.
Hell--referring to all those in Hades.
All receiving their condemnation in the Lake of fire to be tormented forever and ever.

Remember that there were no 'chapter' separations in the original, so chapter 20 and 21 ran right into one another. After the scene of the Lake of Fire, John immediately saw the NEW EARTH. Along with a promise from GOD. That HE will wipe away the tears, and there will not be anymore sorry or pain or crying.

Now tell me, if my parents were lost people and I had just watched them get thrown into the Lake of Fire, don't you think I would be sad? If all those people are burning, how could He say that there is no more pain? Don't you think that fire would be painful?

I believe that promise is true. There won't be anyone burning after the fire goes out. NO MORE PAIN.

Again this is your failure to believe the promises of God that there will be no more tears in Heaven. Trust God for that situation. He is not cruel enough to torture those in Heaven.
DHK