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Where was Jesus ?
- Thread starter jeben
- Start date
Actually it's that He first descended then ascended.
You are correct descended into ??? and after the third day he was raised again and ascended to God to be accepted for us returned for 40 days then ascended and sat down on the right side of the Father as the High Priest in the Holy of Hollies.
We're jumping to the conclusion that paradise means Heaven. The word is a lot broader than that. It refers to the abode of the righteous dead, and also to an intermediate resting place for righteous souls awaiting the resurrection. With this in mind, the thief (traditionally known by the name of Dismas) probably accompanied Jesus as He descended into Hell (Sheol, the abode of the righteous dead).
Jesus descended to earth. In order to ascend to heaven, He had to descend first.
He also descended into the heart of the earth (Hades) Hell in KJV for three days and three nights before he ascended to the Father. Well that's what David and Peter thought.
Can't see the forest for the trees
LOL, Amy, you are getting so hung up over punctuation in the scripture that you can see the message in the scripture.
The road of biblical punctuation is strewn with quicksand, landmines, and a jungle that will eat you alive. The KJV has changed various punctuation since it was first published and with enough looking you can find about whatever punctuation you are looking for in a translation here or there.
At times like these it is good to keep in mind that the original inspired scripture didn’t have any commas or other punctuate in it at all. Punctuation came along much later. It is all the doing of man long after the inspired writers died.
Instead of basing the meaning of a passage on man made punctuation it would be better to read it in context of other bible verses. Not only did the idiom of using the word “today” for emphasis appear numerous times in the book of Deuteronomy, but you can look at New Testament passages to see Jesus didn’t come into his Kingdom immediately when he died.
First look what the thief said “remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Nothing there suggests he thinks Christ comes into his Kingdom immediately when he died. Further, remember in Acts 1 when the disciples asked him if at this time was he restoring the kingdom? Or the night of his betrayal Jesus said he wouldn’t drink of the fruit of the vine until the day when he drank it in the kingdom of God. Nothing suggests Jesus went immediately into his Kingdom when he died on the cross nor that anyone thought it was going to be immediate.
But if you need a translation to make the point legit to you then allow me to gift wrap this one for you.
"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise' The Concordant Literal New Testament
I’m sure there are other examples.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of the scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
LOL, Amy, you are getting so hung up over punctuation in the scripture that you can see the message in the scripture.
The road of biblical punctuation is strewn with quicksand, landmines, and a jungle that will eat you alive. The KJV has changed various punctuation since it was first published and with enough looking you can find about whatever punctuation you are looking for in a translation here or there.
At times like these it is good to keep in mind that the original inspired scripture didn’t have any commas or other punctuate in it at all. Punctuation came along much later. It is all the doing of man long after the inspired writers died.
Instead of basing the meaning of a passage on man made punctuation it would be better to read it in context of other bible verses. Not only did the idiom of using the word “today” for emphasis appear numerous times in the book of Deuteronomy, but you can look at New Testament passages to see Jesus didn’t come into his Kingdom immediately when he died.
First look what the thief said “remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Nothing there suggests he thinks Christ comes into his Kingdom immediately when he died. Further, remember in Acts 1 when the disciples asked him if at this time was he restoring the kingdom? Or the night of his betrayal Jesus said he wouldn’t drink of the fruit of the vine until the day when he drank it in the kingdom of God. Nothing suggests Jesus went immediately into his Kingdom when he died on the cross nor that anyone thought it was going to be immediate.
But if you need a translation to make the point legit to you then allow me to gift wrap this one for you.
"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise' The Concordant Literal New Testament
I’m sure there are other examples.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of the scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
Lick, Lick, Lick,... nothing
Yo Steadfast, that reminds me of The Great Yukon Cornelius bellowing out to Hermey "You eat what you like and, I'll eat what I like!
"Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!" Mel
Why thank you Mel!
Yo Steadfast, that reminds me of The Great Yukon Cornelius bellowing out to Hermey "You eat what you like and, I'll eat what I like!
"Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!" Mel
Why thank you Mel!
Lowest parts of the Earth...are the Earth.
Hello,
May I suggest an alternate answer?
There is no proof that Jesus went to Hell, as popularly imagined. The passages quoted can all be viewed differently. A lot of times we pour our own meaning into verses and then point to them as proving our point. Take for example Ephesians 4:9-10, one of your proofs.
"(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:9-10.
At first glance it seem to actually state that Christ went down to hell. But then, when you do some cross-referencing, you may notice just what is meant by "lowest parts of the earth". And once again, this is where reading and being familiar with all of the Bible is so very important.
Isaiah 44:23:
"Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it!
Shout, you lower parts of the earth;
Break forth into singing, you mountains,
O forest, and every tree in it!
For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And glorified Himself in Israel."
According to this, the lower parts are the Earth. Part of this "lower part" are the "mountains", "forest", "tree".
The "lower" is in reference to Heaven. We often forget that much of the Bible is written from a spiritual, heavenly perspective.
Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with Me in paradise." That is good enough for me. We do not need to complicate what God has kept simple.
Hello,
May I suggest an alternate answer?
There is no proof that Jesus went to Hell, as popularly imagined. The passages quoted can all be viewed differently. A lot of times we pour our own meaning into verses and then point to them as proving our point. Take for example Ephesians 4:9-10, one of your proofs.
"(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:9-10.
At first glance it seem to actually state that Christ went down to hell. But then, when you do some cross-referencing, you may notice just what is meant by "lowest parts of the earth". And once again, this is where reading and being familiar with all of the Bible is so very important.
Isaiah 44:23:
"Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it!
Shout, you lower parts of the earth;
Break forth into singing, you mountains,
O forest, and every tree in it!
For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And glorified Himself in Israel."
According to this, the lower parts are the Earth. Part of this "lower part" are the "mountains", "forest", "tree".
The "lower" is in reference to Heaven. We often forget that much of the Bible is written from a spiritual, heavenly perspective.
Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with Me in paradise." That is good enough for me. We do not need to complicate what God has kept simple.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes.
I don't think the ancient Hebrews had a well defined concept of what we know as Hell--a place of everlasting torture. Probably the best term they used for this was Gehenna, a very hot part of Hades that got its name from an ever burning waste dump outside Jerusalem.
Tom, this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. You may be right. But I don't read the Isaiah passage to equate "lower parts of the earth" with mountains, forest and trees.
dwmoeller1
New Member
How do you establish this? All the other parts I can see, but not that.
dwmoeller1
New Member
A good point.
dwmoeller1
New Member
It doesn't directly, but given the context, it wouldn't be very reasonable to see it as referring to Sheol. That would seem to be introducing an element that doesn't really fit in the context.
And FWIW, the NIV and ESV, at least, apparently think this the better rendering of the veres. Notice:
9(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) (ESV)
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?)
And furthermore, it does seem to make more sense in the context of Eph 4. At the very least, the context of Eph 4 doesn't require that the concept of Hades be present - a contrast between His incarnation and ascension would make perfect sense. And it would seem to avoid the fallacy of anachronism that is so often made. We tend to forget that the Greek and Hebrew view of creation was totally different than ours.
Actually, he descended into the ground (heart of the earth) or grave - not hell as in the place of eternal tourment. No one in the early church thought He went to hell.
Does anyone else find this so extremely arrogant and proud??
This all from Leviticus 23. On the fourteenth day of the first month Christ our Passover died for us. This was somewhere in the midst of the week. The fifteenth day was a feast day with the weekly sabbath following also then on the morrow after the weekly sabbath something took place. verse 10 last part,
then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: verse 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. Now notice in John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
For I am not yet ascended (waved before the LORD) to my Father. Yet after he ascends and is waved God becomes my and your. Later that night in Luke he tells them handle me.
Just for information this day is the morrow after the weekly sabbath but it is not the feast of firstfruits as some think.
I quite agree. A KJV error of all things. However it is my favorite translation.
Jesus descended into the grave a place one is buried. O death where is thy sting O grave where is thy victory. His soul was not left in hades (the grave)
Death is the entry way into hell (the grave) Jesus said, I will build church (the called out ones) and the gates of hell (death) shall not prevail against it. How/why resurrection.