So you think the OT saints weren't in heaven before Christ?
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Where was Jesus ?
- Thread starter jeben
- Start date
So you think the OT saints weren't in heaven before Christ?
Absolutely. No one contests that. But did He go there immediately? [I don't know, since we are creatures of time, if we can adequately discuss this] How do you explain passages such as 1 Peter 3:18-19 or Ephesians 4:9-10?
I don't know. Where was Abraham in Luke 16:23?
Abraham was with God in Luke 16. Genesis 25 states he was "gathered to his people" showing he went to where the righteous go to be.
1 Peter 3:18-19 is stating His death proclaimed (preached) to those in Hell His defeat of sin and death, and Ephesian 4:9-10 is speaking of His body being put into the ground.
While Joseph is a type of Christ we must remember the "type" part. His entire earthly life was not identical to Christ's. He did not spend time in prison, He went to paradise.
in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet 3:19
(Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:9
NASB 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
It does not say He was in hell. If you are going to take it literally, wouldn't this be more a "prison ministry" visitation? Besides, the Gospel is preached to those who need saving. If you have died and are already in hell, there are no second chances.
I see it more as figurative. When I was baptized I proclaimed to my church family and the world I died and arose again in Christ without actually "doing" anything but be baptized.
The lower parts of the earth is describing the grave.
I lean towards the idee that prior to the cross Sheol was the holding place for both the wicked and the righteous. And I'm sure there's 'problem passages' with all views presented here on this thread, mine included, and I prolly won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about it.
I don't know if what He preached would be what you consider as 'the gospel'; and you're right, the gospel does the unregenerate no good at all. On the other hand we, His children, all need saving till the day we die. And it's His design to save us through the preaching of the gospel.
No 1. you have to have a preconceived idea already in mind to say gathered to his people means having gone to heaven. I am pretty sure it means he died and was buried just as those before him. If Abraham was with God in heaven when you think he was how did he get there being Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven? This will take a few post between us to work this out. Please bare with me.
That section of scripture in 1 Peter 3 is difficult, but we can be pretty sure what it does not say. It does say that Jesus went and released OT saints from some sort of holding station and brought them to heaven. That is nowhere in the text.
The people preached to were people who were disobedient in the days of Noah, those whose wickedness provoked God to destroy the earth with water. There were 8 who weren't included in that number, one of them we know was an OT saint. He isn't under consideration as one of the spirits in prison. I guess he must have gotten into heaven already, he didn't Jesus to come and release him.
Now, here's how I see that section of scripture. That section does not tell you when the spirits in prison were preached to. It does not even tell you what the prison is. All it says it they were preached to and that they were disobedient in the days of Noah. Beyond that, nobody has any idea. People read that section and allow their imaginations to run wild. I mean, what is the prison? Is it hell? The grave? Some holding station? Their body? I've heard all those ideas advanced and there isn't convincing evidence of any in the text. Who preached to them? Did Jesus literally go and preach to them by the Spirit? Or did Noah, who is called a preacher of righteousness? When did this take place?
Nobody can answer those questions. I can say this though: I have yet to find a shred of evidence in the bible that the OT saints went anywhere other than heaven when they died and that Jesus went anywhere other than heaven when He died.
The people preached to were people who were disobedient in the days of Noah, those whose wickedness provoked God to destroy the earth with water. There were 8 who weren't included in that number, one of them we know was an OT saint. He isn't under consideration as one of the spirits in prison. I guess he must have gotten into heaven already, he didn't Jesus to come and release him.
Now, here's how I see that section of scripture. That section does not tell you when the spirits in prison were preached to. It does not even tell you what the prison is. All it says it they were preached to and that they were disobedient in the days of Noah. Beyond that, nobody has any idea. People read that section and allow their imaginations to run wild. I mean, what is the prison? Is it hell? The grave? Some holding station? Their body? I've heard all those ideas advanced and there isn't convincing evidence of any in the text. Who preached to them? Did Jesus literally go and preach to them by the Spirit? Or did Noah, who is called a preacher of righteousness? When did this take place?
Nobody can answer those questions. I can say this though: I have yet to find a shred of evidence in the bible that the OT saints went anywhere other than heaven when they died and that Jesus went anywhere other than heaven when He died.
According to that passage, He didn't preach it to Noah and his family. What about them? Instead, He preached it to disobedient people from Noah's day. Did He preach to anyone else in your Sheol holding place for souls or only those who were disobedient and lived concurrent with Noah?
It partly means that, but it is common verbiage in the OT for that to also mean to go and be with the righteous before you.
Jesus was the only man to ascend into heaven. That is separate from our souls going to be with the Lord when we die. Enoch and Elisha were caught up to Heaven, but Christ is the only one with the power to ascend to Heaven.
I'm no expert, so do the same with me
Just curious. Does anyone know what he crafters of the Nicene Creed believed 'He descended into Hell' meant? What did THEY mean? The ground, a real place of torment or other? That would sort of show what early Christians believed wouldn't it? Or shed light on it some?
I don't have the time to get the info for you but basically it was not in the creed originally but later added. I read somewhere that they said that it did not mean that He went to the place of eternal torment but that He was placed into the ground.
Once again I don't think we can read into the verse that no man has the power to ascend.
Another thought came to me. Has anyone ever wondered what happened to Enoch and Elijah's corruptible bodies when the went to heaven? Back to the issue at hand.
In Acts 9:40 how was Tabitha able to open her eyes if she were dead?
Another thought came to me. Has anyone ever wondered what happened to Enoch and Elijah's corruptible bodies when the went to heaven? Back to the issue at hand.
In Acts 9:40 how was Tabitha able to open her eyes if she were dead?
Also it was the whole concept of hades whether that concept was correct or not. David said his soul, meaning Jesus would not be left in hades. This is where David says the once living soul Jesus was. He died for our sins. The same idea is seen in Acts 2:24 where the resurrection of Jesus is as God loosing the birth-pangs of death. See Adam Clarke where some MS show the birth-pangs of hades which Clarke thinks were done to support their concept of descending into hell. However birth-pangs of hades in a bible concept. see Ps 116:3 In many places in the bible is the idea of while dead is being impregnated in the earth thus Acts 2:24 or even as Jesus being the firstborn from the dead. See Isa 26 the earth casting out birthing the dead. Isa 66 has this concept. Ps 139
That is correct. When Noah was building the ark the Word by the Holy Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison. Man is said to have a spirit. Angles are called spirit beings not man. These were the spirits he went and preached to. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4 The very next verse talks about saving Noah
I'm sorry webdog this question about Tabitha was for you, for it concerns out posts.
I have pondered about Elijah and Enoch, to be honest. Scripture tells us that our bodies are not fit for Heaven, so I believe they were changed in the same way our will be when Christ comes back for us. The flesh still "died" so to speak.
Peter commanded Tabitha to get up via the Holy Spirit. She did not open her own eyes, she was resurrected. The difference is Christ being God did not need another to rise from the grave...He did it Himself. I think that is the difference in Him ascending to the Father on His own power and others being caught up.
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The rich man was in hades just as those in Revelation 20:13 that are delivered up therefore resurrected from death and hades they and he were not being resurrected from gehenna but will be judged then cast into gehenna. The rich man lifted up his eyes, was being resurrected, and he knew he was going to be cast into gehenna for he could feel and see the flames.
For the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid that for three days and three nights. If the wages for sin is eternal punishing in flames of fire then Jesus would still be paying that. Heb. 5:9 Jesus became the author of eternal salvation by being raised from the dead by God the Father. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I would pray that all who read my post would not pick at them for things to disagree with but study all the scriptures as they are put together and understand that when the Word became flesh to die for us he did so believing to be raised and restored to glory as he once had with the Father per John 17. He gave his life for us. It was no small thing. I may not have it all right I just pray that you really study and not pick. I try very to use the Word of God for all posts.