Where was Lazarus?

[rlvaughn]

John 11:39 "...he hath been dead four days."

Where was the Spirit of Lazarus during the four days between the time Lazarus died and Jesus brought him from the dead?

Not looking for a debate (though anyone is free to debate it), but more polling to see what you believe about this and your scriptural reasons why.

Thanks.

 

[JamesL]

I would imagine he would have been in Abraham's bosom

 

[kyredneck]

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/ot-saints-in-heaven-or-in-limbo.102310/page-2#post-2268158

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks. I had not noticed there was already a thread on this general topic. I took a look and see that it looks like an extended debate. Maybe some will still be willing to post their simplified points of view here.

 

[kyredneck]

Where was the Spirit of Lazarus

As JamesL alluded, he was where the Lazarus of Lu 16 went, which has to be in synonymy with Paradise where Christ and the thief went and where the spirit of Samuel was called up from.

In short, an intermediate state.

 

[percho]

As JamesL alluded, he was where the Lazarus of Lu 16 went, which has to be in synonymy with Paradise where Christ and the thief went and where the spirit of Samuel was called up from.

In short, an intermediate state.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where did those return to? Is that statement time relevant with a destination change, at some point in time?

 

[Alcott]

Why is it so hard to believe he just took a 4-day nap? If he didn't, and he saw those indescribable things that Paul alluded to, he might have been mad that Jesus called him back to life in this dump.

If you're afraid that gives credence to "soul sleep," well, I have a period of 3 or 4 days that I cannot account for in my life, following my motorcycle wreck which mangled me for life (and of which I have no conscious memory). Why would my injuries be a 'sleep' of several days, and Lazarus' death would not be?.

 

[Darrell C]

Why is it so hard to believe he just took a 4-day nap? If he didn't, and he saw those indescribable things that Paul alluded to, he might have been mad that Jesus called him back to life in this dump.

If you're afraid that gives credence to "soul sleep," well, I have a period of 3 or 4 days that I cannot account for in my life, following my motorcycle wreck which mangled me for life (and of which I have no conscious memory). Why would my injuries be a 'sleep' of several days, and Lazarus' death would not be?.

Were you dead during that three or four days? Lazarus was. According to Christ:

John 11:11-14

King James Version (KJV)


11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.



God bless.

 

[Alcott]

Were you dead during that three or four days? Lazarus was. According to Christ:.

No, no one told me if they had resuscitate me. As for people who have that done, do they have stories of where they 'were?' Like Kenneth Hagin? Do you believe his?

 

[Darrell C]

No, no one told me if they had resuscitate me. As for people who have that done, do they have stories of where they 'were?' Like Kenneth Hagin? Do you believe his?

There are numerous NDEs I have heard about which I do not speculate about. I believe it very possible for people to die and for their spirit to leave the body and go either to the Bosom of Abraham or perhaps even Heaven itself. I believe this is what happened to Lazarus. This is what happened to Christ (though I reject the idea that He remained in Hades the entire time, taking the view that He delivered the Old Testament Saints at this time). It is also possible that Paul, when stoned, actually died and went to Heaven.

But we see outright fraud in some of the stories, such as the one which a book and I believe a movie was made about a small boy, whose mother asked them not to produce them because she admitted it was fraudulent.

The thing I wonder is if Paul was carried into Heaven (which is my belief based on "third heaven" whereas "Paradise" as the term used to designate Hades in Jewish tradition always speaks of going down) and implies he could not speak about it, why wouldn't that hold true for all who might go there during a near death experience?


God bless.

 

[Alcott]

The thing I wonder is if Paul was carried into Heaven (which is my belief based on "third heaven" whereas "Paradise" as the term used to designate Hades in Jewish tradition always speaks of going down) and implies he could not speak about it, why wouldn't that hold true for all who might go there during a near death experience?
God bless.

For me, it's that you haven't convinced me at all something possible in worldly living is impossible in a spiritual realm.

 

[Darrell C]

For me, it's that you haven't convinced me at all something possible in worldly living is impossible in a spiritual realm.

Not really sure what it is you refer to. Could you be a little more specific.


God bless.

 

[Alcott]

Not really sure what it is you refer to. Could you be a little more specific.

You have been contending that we cannot have an unknowing or unconscious existence after we physically die-- have you not? And I have shown that we can have such before. So how is something physically possible but spiritually impossible?

 

[Darrell C]

You have been contending that we cannot have an unknowing or unconscious existence after we physically die-- have you not?

On the contrary, just the opposite.

And I have shown that we can have such before.

As have I.

So how is something physically possible but spiritually impossible?

That question would make a great thread, actually, lol.

How about it is physically possible to cease to exist but not spiritually possible?


God bless.

 

[rlvaughn]

Why is it so hard to believe he just took a 4-day nap? If he didn't, and he saw those indescribable things that Paul alluded to, he might have been mad that Jesus called him back to life in this dump.

This brings up an interesting side discussion to the topic. It seems to me that whether Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, Paradise or Heaven (in whatever manner one interprets them, other than he was just asleep) that he must have been in a better, more peaceful, less painful place. We tend to interpret most of the miracles of Jesus as acts of compassion that made life better for the one who benefited from the miracle. In this case it seems the beneficiary was not particularly Lazarus -- who went from a better place to a worse place -- but his family and friends who mourned his loss, and especially those who believed on Jesus because of the miracle (Cf. John 12:10-11).

 

[Alcott]

On the contrary, just the opposite.

Definitely not the opposite. But why were you arguing with me after I said he might have taken a nap for 4 days?

How about it is physically possible to cease to exist but not spiritually possible?

Physically it's only 'possible' because elements are arranged into a human being. But every atom continues to exist afterword.Spiritually, we don't know enough about any equivalent of "elements" and transformations. But we do know God is the decider thereof, and if, in some special cases, he suspends or alters natural laws-- Lazaus being one of those very special cases-- he may also do so for the spiritual.

 

[rlvaughn]

Sorry for the repost, but it seems like the top of my post got lost.

If you're afraid that gives credence to "soul sleep," well, I have a period of 3 or 4 days that I cannot account for in my life, following my motorcycle wreck which mangled me for life (and of which I have no conscious memory). Why would my injuries be a 'sleep' of several days, and Lazarus' death would not be?

I'm not sure why you compare yourself with Lazarus, since you acknowledge that you were unconscious, while Lazarus was dead. But...

Why is it so hard to believe he just took a 4-day nap? If he didn't, and he saw those indescribable things that Paul alluded to, he might have been mad that Jesus called him back to life in this dump.

This brings up an interesting side discussion to the topic. It seems to me that whether Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, Paradise or Heaven (in whatever manner one interprets them, other than he was just asleep) that he must have been in a better, more peaceful, less painful place. We tend to interpret most of the miracles of Jesus as acts of compassion that made life better for the one who benefited from the miracle. In this case it seems the beneficiary was not particularly Lazarus -- who went from a better place to a worse place -- but his family and friends who mourned his loss, and especially those who believed on Jesus because of the miracle (Cf. John 12:10-11).

 

[Darrell C]

Definitely not the opposite.

Its pretty clear in what I wrote that I hold to a conscious existence and continuance of the spirit of man after physical death.

But why were you arguing with me after I said he might have taken a nap for 4 days?

As far as I know the only thing I have "argued" against is your question as to whether Lazarus might not have just taken a nap. That is why I asked if you died for the days you mention in regards to your own experience. Lazarus died according to Christ, that is why we don't entertain a swoon theory in regards to him.

Physically it's only 'possible' because elements are arranged into a human being. But every atom continues to exist afterword.Spiritually, we don't know enough about any equivalent of "elements" and transformations. But we do know God is the decider thereof, and if, in some special cases, he suspends or alters natural laws-- Lazaus being one of those very special cases-- he may also do so for the spiritual.

While the physical components of the dead may still exist in the physical universe, that does not equate to them still existing. They become dust again, not the being temporarily out of commission. Abraham, for example, has ceased to exist physically.

What makes a man a man is God giving that man physical life. When God removes that life, they cease to exist on a physical basis, but, they continue to exist in spirit. It will not be until God resurrects the dead that they will exist again in a physical capacity. God gives physical life, as well as spiritual.


God bless.

 

[JamesL]

....While the physical components of the dead may still exist in the physical universe, that does not equate to them still existing. They become dust again....
When God removes that life, they cease to exist on a physical basis, but, they continue to exist in spirit.....

Indeed....

Scripture says the life of all flesh is in the blood - Leviticus 17:11

Scripture also says the dust shall return to the earth as it were, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it - Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[Darrell C]

Indeed....

Scripture says the life of all flesh is in the blood - Leviticus 17:11

And as long as we maintain this as a physical context and do not write into it a New Testament Perspective which we have, and they did not, we do not corrupt what is being said here.

Physical blood removed from the body does not impact the spirit, it impacts the physical life.

Scripture also says the dust shall return to the earth as it were, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it - Ecclesiastes 12:7

And again, I take the view that "spirit" is here a reference to "life," rather than the spirit of man itself. We would have to conclude that all who died physically "went to be with God," when we know that is not the case (Luke 16 itself being a prime text on that point).

It is when we equate the knowledge we now have with the revelation being provided to Old Testament Eras that we see a merging and blending of concepts that are not found in the two differing and primary Eras of Biblical History (Old and New Testament).

For example:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Would we think this to mean that all men go to Heaven and that all beasts go to Hades (or ultimately Hell)?

In view, I believe, is the revocation of life (in your quoted passage), and not meant to be a commentary on the eternal destiny of either men or beasts. In this passage I see a reference to, not the internal spirit of man and beast, but the mentality (such as in "a spirit of fear") of man and beast: man's thoughts look to Heaven and God whereas the beast is completely indifferent, not having a concept of God and Heaven. That is not to say natural man has a legitimate knowledge of God of himself, but we keep this in the context of the one writing this, and it is a given that in view are those who have had God revealed to them.


God bless.