Which church do you clame membership to?

Romans, chapter 7

"22": For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

"23": But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

"24": O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

"25": I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (If you can't see two men there, inward and outward, then who can help you.

Romans, chapter 2
"28": For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

"29": But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

KJMatt.20

"22": But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (They knew He had been baptized in the water, wonder what He was talking about?

He answered a good conscious to God. In order to do that he had to get it first and that was with the Holy Ghost.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures.

When you are born again you don't have to die. To be born again is to be resurrected from a dead state and we know the body has to die. I don't like your "born again" it means death, that is no good, don't want it.

 

mman,

We need to take into consideration ALL of scripture...

"I indeed baptise with water. One is coming who is greater than me. He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost"

We see here water baptism, Spirit baptism, and baptism with fire. All legitimate.

Ephesians is speaking of one baptism in the context of what is being adressed there...and I agree with it.

But of course there are different types of baptisms.

Really? The Church at Ephesus. The Church at Corinth. The Church at Phillipi. The Church at Collosse.

But all of them are part of the one church that matters...the Church of Jesus Christ. The one and only church that God deals with and works through.

The names on the building are 100% irrelavent to God.

"Let your brother be fully convinced in His own mind. Who are you to judge anothers servant?"

Nonsense. We all worship in Spirit and in truth.

The church is indeed the pillar and ground of truth.

We hold in our hearts the Lord Jesus Christ who is "the truth" (as well as the way and the life), we are empowered and guided by the Holy Spirit, who is the "Spirit of Truth", and we have Gods scriptures, which are our only truth standard in written form.

Praise His name forever!

Its a very popular lie for cultic groups to say that they are Gods only "pillar and ground of truth", and that only THEY have the ability to interpret Gods scriptures.

Of course that is utter nonsense, but its a great way to keep people in bondage to their clutches.

David Koresh told his people that, as do the Jehovahs Witnesses. The Mormons are taught that as were as Jim Jones's people, and those in the Roman Catholic Church and Mary Baker Eddys Christian Science cult.

Its a normal characteristic straight out of "Cultism 101".

God bless,

Mike

 

We need to take into consideration ALL of scripture...

"I indeed baptise with water. One is coming who is greater than me. He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost"

We see here water baptism, Spirit baptism, and baptism with fire. All legitimate.

Ephesians is speaking of one baptism in the context of what is being adressed there...and I agree with it.

But of course there are different types of baptisms.

Really? The Church at Ephesus. The Church at Corinth. The Church at Phillipi. The Church at Collosse.

But all of them are part of the one church that matters...the Church of Jesus Christ. The one and only church that God deals with and works through.

The names on the building are 100% irrelavent to God.

"Let your brother be fully convinced in His own mind. Who are you to judge anothers servant?"

Nonsense. We all worship in Spirit and in truth.

The church is indeed the pillar and ground of truth.

We hold in our hearts the Lord Jesus Christ who is "the truth" (as well as the way and the life), we are empowered and guided by the Holy Spirit, who is the "Spirit of Truth", and we have Gods scriptures, which are our only truth standard in written form.

Praise His name forever!

Its a very popular lie for cultic groups to say that they are Gods only "pillar and ground of truth", and that only THEY have the ability to interpret Gods scriptures.

Of course that is utter nonsense, but its a great way to keep people in bondage to their clutches.

David Koresh told his people that, as do the Jehovahs Witnesses. The Mormons are taught that as were as Jim Jones's people, and those in the Roman Catholic Church and Mary Baker Eddys Christian Science cult.

Its a normal characteristic straight out of "Cultism 101".

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Is that really how you rationalize it?

Yes, there were different congregations, but one body. They were to speak the same things, be of the same mind and judgment, with NO DIVISIONS!!!!

Do you really think the denominations fulfill this requirement? If so, you are truly deluded and deceived!

All denominations cannot be worshipping in truth because they are teaching different things! God is not divided and truth does not contradict itself. If you want contradictions, just look at the various teachings of the denominations and even within the denomination.

 

One is Spiritual = 1 to inward man

One is natural = 1 to outward man

Depends on which man you are referring to.

In Eph He was referring to the Spiritual man or inner man.

I rest my case.

 

So why didn't the 12 receive it in Acts 19. What a ridiculous question for Paul to ask, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" - Acts 19:2

I Pet 3:21 says something saves us. What is it?
Acts 22:16 says somthing washes away our sins. What is it?
Rom 6:3-4 says something puts us into Christ. What is it?
Gal 3:27 says something puts us into Christ. What is it?
Mark 16:16, Jesus saud we have to believe and do something to be saved. What is it?

I can prove through the scriptures that the answer to each of these is water baptism.

When you refer to I Cor 12:13, a comparison to Acts 2 shows exactly how this takes place.

Also notice in I Cor 12:13, the baptism is not "with" the Spirit, but by the Spirit, there is a difference.

Back to Acts 2, the believers of the message were cut to the heart (vs 37).

They asked what must we do? What would your answer have been?

Peter was speaking but not of his own accord. He was speaking as the Spirit gave him utterance (vs 4).

So the Spirit answered this question, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

What came first, the baptism or the gift of the Holy Spirit? Obviously he is talking water baptism. In fact, this is the first sermon after Jesus gave his commission, which included going into all the world and preaching "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". (Mark 16:16).

Those that gladly recevied his word were baptized and add to them (vs 41). Then in vs 47 we see that it was the church that they were added to.

So, by the instructions given by the one Spirit, they were all baptized (in water) into one body or church.

Matt 28:18-20, Jesus gave a command to go teach baptize and teach. This baptism is something they could do, therefore it was water baptism. Baptism WITH the H.S. was a promise from Jesus and was never a command. It was something He would do and not man.

If you cannot baptize others with the HS then you could not fulfill Matt 28:18-20, if that is what he was talking about. However, you can baptize others with water.

The command in Matt 28:18-20 is never ending, because those who were baptized were to be taught to go teach and baptize others and teach them to go taach and baptize others, thus never ending.

Baptism always means immersion. From Acts 8:36, we see that immersion is in water. Therefore when baptism is mentioned, it always means in water unless something in the text demands otherwise. That was the normal sense of the word in the New Testament. (Acts 8:36, - "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?")

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is nothing in the text to suggest this means anything other than it's common meaning, water baptism. This is the one baptism that we can perform and thus to carry out Matt 28:18-20. This is the one baptism today because the command of Matt 28:18-20 is a continuing action, passed from one to another, that can be traced back to the Apostles.

Yes, there have been many baptisms, but now there is just one. A distinciton is made in the scriptures between baptism with the Holy Spirit and baptism in water. They never occurred simutaneously! Water baptism is the one baptism.

 

Your case is lacking the facts. For you to declare it is the inward man has no merit.

Therefore, water baptism is no longer in effect and should not be practiced.

Show me where Jesus command in Matt 28:18-20 was abolished or is to be ignored.

What was the last part of that statement? Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you.

What had he just commanded them? To go teach and baptize or as Mark states it, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

 

We need to take into consideration ALL of scripture...

"I indeed baptise with water. One is coming who is greater than me. He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost"

We see here water baptism, Spirit baptism, and baptism with fire. All legitimate.

Ephesians is speaking of one baptism in the context of what is being adressed there...and I agree with it.

But of course there are different types of baptisms.
</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]There were different types of baptism. I agree, the was the baptism of John, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and so on.

There have been many, but today there is just one according to Eph 4:5.

Accept one and reject the others as being applicable today.

Eph 4:5 is no doubt water baptism. Only the person who wants it to mean something other than its normal, usual, everyday meaning would try to deny this fact.

Why not accept it for what it says?

 

Well if you don't accept the fact that water baptism does not save you then you have to believe that Eph is talking about the Holy Ghost baptism, which is a Spiritual baptism. But I see that you do accept that the water saves you so we are worlds apart and if I believed the natural water baptism saves I would gather all my children and the neighbors children and stick everyone of them under the water.

Romans, chapter 8
"14": For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Why do I have this feeling that you will never accept anything. You don't have an answer unless you believe that the water baptism is no longer in effect or the Holy Ghost baptism is no longer in affect. Do you believe the soul will leave the body at death to be with Christ? If so, then why. Would it be because it received the Holy Ghost baptism and raised from a dead state and made alive in Christ, for it surely was dead at one time "the soul that sinneth shall die.

Luke, chapter 9
"60": Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (He was talking about those dead in sin (inwardly), bury those who had died the natural death).

Luke, chapter 17
"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

1 John, chapter 4
"4": Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So we see it is the part within you that keeps the outward part and that is because that which is within you is what is born again and that which is without is waiting on the redemption of the body.

Because it does not say water baptism, that is simple to answer

 

Wow, Bob, what wonderful prooftexting you did. Tell me did you give yourself a papercut when you riped the verses out of context?

Romans 2 Does not create a dicotomy between the so called inner man and the so called outer man, merely describes people relying on going through the paces rather than trusting in God.


Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

There is only one baptism given to the disciples to do and this is it the one commanded by Christ. Through out the history of the church, as evidenced by Acts, the ECF's, and church historians, it has been administered by water. Paul describes it in his letters as a circumcision of the heart, connecting us to the Death and Resurrection of Christ, while Peter calls it the washing of our being so that we can make an appeal of good conscience.

In addition, there is nothing in the context of Eph 4:5 that indicates a seperation of Body and soul as you are trying to maintain, in fact the context of the passage is one of unity. Your seperation of the inward and outward dissolves that unity.

This body I have now may die, unless Christ returns first, but I do not care for I will not face the second death because of Christ.

 

The apostles don't just grab anyone and baptize them. It has to be those that have had something done inside of them and that is made alive in Christ Jesus. (He that believeth!!!!) very important part that you seem to be leaving out.When you believe from the heart you receive something called Holy Ghost.
As I said, If the water baptism saves then we need to grab everyone we see and stick them under.

Once again, without the Holy Ghost baptism they go in a dry sinner and come out a wet one.

 

No Bob, the power is not in the water, but the blood. However, that is how we come in contact with the blood. If the power were in the water, we could drag people and dunk them, but that is not the case.

We are baptized because we believe. Therefore, baptism is a matter of faith, just like Paul said to the Galatians.

"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

Acts 2:38 Baptism is "for the remission of sins"
Matt 26:28 Jesus blood is shed "for the remission of sins"

The same Greek phrase is used. Therefore, baptism is where we come in contact with the blood. But we already knew that because Paul said that we are baptized into His death, and that is where the blood flowed. (Rom 6:3-4)

What came from Jesus side when he was pierced at His death? That's right, blood and water! (Jn 19:34). For you that must be an irrelevant fact, but when I read Rom 6, what a powerful statement!

 

True teaching and Baptism are closely linked as evidence to how Jesus told us disciples are made, however that does not negate what was revealed through the apostles concerning Baptism in that it is the means by which we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ and gives us the means by which to have a clean conscience.

Your suggestion to baptise indiscriminately is absurd for doing such seperates it from teaching. Having said that baptism are no less valid, we just would not be doing them any favors by not insuring that that faith has a chance to grow through teaching.

 

No, Eph 4:5 says there is one baptism. Unless you can show from the text that there is something that demands it to mean something than it's everyday normal meaning, then it is water baptism.

If I say it is raining outside, you understand that water is falling from the sky. I don't have to say it is raining water because everyone understands that.

The same is true with baptism. In the bible, baptism is always baptism in water unless the text demands otherwise. Just because you don't like it, is not a valid reason.

 

Naaman instructed to bathe in the river 7 times
Naaman the Syrian consulted the prophet of God as to how he could be cured of a loathsome disease, the leprosy. He was bidden to go and bathe in Jordan seven times. Why did he not immediately follow the directions of Elisha, the prophet of God? . . . In his mortification and disappointment he became passionate, and in a rage refused to follow the humble course marked out by the prophet of God. "I thought," said he, "he will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage."

His servant said: "My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash [merely], and be clean?" Yes, this great man considered it beneath his dignity to go to the humble river Jordan, and wash. The rivers he mentioned and desired were beautified by surrounding trees and groves, and idols were placed in these groves. Many flocked to these rivers to worship their idol gods; therefore it would have cost him no humility. But it was following the specified directions of the prophet which would humble his proud and lofty spirit. Willing obedience would bring the desired result. He washed, and was made whole.

God commands His people to be baptised. By the simple act of trust and obedience, you are cooperating with God and enlisting the powers of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost on your behalf.

When God told his people to march around Jericho seven times do you really think their marching is what made the walls of Jericho come tumbling down?

Do you think the walls wouldve come down had they not trusted and obeyed God and did exactly what He said.

Baptism isnt some sort of magical rite. God asks you to do something... do it. You will be blessed for your trust in Him and for your obedience.

Just like when God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the certain tree in the garden. There wasnt anything magical about that tree and one wouldve thought it a silly request. But God was testing them to see if they would trust and obey them. He does the same today.

When you think about Baptism, think about Naaman. If God gives you instructions to dip in the river 7 times then do it. If God tells you to be baptised in water, then do it. You wont receive the Holy Ghost unless you trust and obey Him.


The theif on the cross couldnt be baptised.


2Cor:8:12: For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Claudia

[ April 20, 2006, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

Ephesians, chapter 1

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I see the Holy Spirit here but I don't see the water. Please don't think that I am say for the saved not to be baptized for I think they must if they are able to. We had one who died in the brothers arms that was carrying him to the water. I think that brother was saved, what say you? You asked for a Scripture showing the Holy Spirit there first well here it is.

 

Where does Eph 1 say the Holy Spirit came first much less always come first? I ask because Eph 1:13 only speaks of being sealed, and being sealed is synomymous with Circumsion (aka the Seal of the Covenant) and Circumsion was likened to Baptism. So in many ways Eph 1:13 is speaking of being sealed by Baptism.

 

Later in Eph 5:26, Paul states, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," Paul is talking about the church with the Ephesians were part of. They had been baptized or as he says here, washed with water.

A student of the scriptures know that the word "believe" and it's forms often times specifically includes baptism.

Acts 16:34, "...And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God."

Now if we apply Eph 1:13 to the Philippian Jailer, we would have to go to verse 34, because that is when it is said that he believed.

Does this mean he was not baptized?

Let's go back to the text. He was told to believe in vs 31 and in vs 34, we have him rejoicing having believed in God. What happened in between these two verses? They spoke the word of the Lord to him and we was baptized.

If you only had verse 34, you would be arguing that he "only believed".

In Acts 2:44, "And all who believed were together and had all things in common."

How are these baptized believers refered to? As "all who believed".

This is but a couple of examples, of which there are more.

There is but one baptism and that is water baptism.

Did Jesus really mean, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" or was He kidding? (Mark 16:16).

 

You miss the point or just don't want to see it. No one was saved without believing first. You think we are supposed to baptize unbelievers?

Ephesians, chapter 1

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This didn't just happen then, Paul was telling them how it took place.

I have had this argument before. a Church of Christ pastor and I debated for over a year and finally he got so hostile I had to cut it off but before I did I told him that his church would get rid of him as soon as they learned how much hate he harbored and after we quit the discussion the church did remove him. I don't know if you are Church of Christ or not but think you probably are from your "profile". I see you only take the NT and I believe in all Scriptures.

God Bless,
BBob

 

mman,

No rationalisation to it. Just feeding on Gods truth with a humble and teachable heart.

"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind. Who are you to judge anothers servant."

Everyone, including God, knows there will be different views on non-foundational issues.

Regarding foundational issues, we are all proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are "speaking the same thing". That Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, that nobody can come to God but through Him, and that we are justified in Gods sight through faith alone.

Unlike groups like the Jehvahs Witnesses, Mormons, and Catholicism, who do not "speak the same thing" but rather preach false gospels.

I have no expectation that you will see these truths right now. Seeds have to lay in the ground and germinate for a while. I'm confident that it will come in time.

I plant...someone else waters...but God gives the increase in due time.

God bless,

Mike

 

Bob, I value the whole bible. While the old covenant is no longer authoritative, it is priceless!

What was written before, was written for our learning, and there is much to be learned.

One thing we can learn is where they placed the laver. God said to place it between the alter and the door of the tabernacle which led to the holy place. The penality of someone trying to enter the Holy Place without washing was death.

Notice, the laver was not in the Holy Place, which would fit your beliefs perfectly, but at the door.

You want to drag the laver into the holy place and then wash in it because you are already holy.

Heb 9:19-22 "For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

Now, Heb 10:19-22, "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

Don't try to drag the laver into the holy place. Leave it at the door where God said to put it.

Jesus blood was for the New Covenant and was shed for many "for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28).

Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ "for the remission of sins".

Both actions are "for the remission of sins", and in fact, it is the same Greek phrase used.

Here we have another tie to the water and the blood.

Rom 6 wonderful dipicts this.

At Jesus' death, water and blood came from his side (Jn 19:34).

I Jn 5:7-8 For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

Yes they do agree!

I Cor 12:13, "For in one Spirit we were all baptized (water) into one body (bought with blood - Acts 20:28)"

Here they all agree as one.

Now, Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them (speaking by inspiration of the Spirit (vs4)), "Repent and be baptized (water) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,(blood - Matt 26:28)"

Here they all agree as one again.

Bob, let me assure you, my motivation is love, not anger, hatred, or to enhance my arguing skills.

If you're are right, I will change, I promise you that. Will you make the same commitment?