Which church do you clame membership to?

[Brother Bob]

mman;
Every Scripture you listed they believed first and believing includes a lot more than just saying it. After you heard the word of truth (of which they did), then after you believed (of which they did) then were you sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (that was when the Holy Ghost baptism took place) and then were they baptized in the water.

 

[Brother Bob]

I will live by the Scriptures as much as God will permit.
Now you say I want to drag the laver into the Holy Place but you are wrong. I think you must believe and be born again which is to receive the Holy Ghost baptism to get into the Holy place. Now the water baptism does not give life but is to answer a good conscious to God and in order to do that you have to have the above for you can not answer a good conscious to God if you have a bad conscious and in order to get the good conscious you have to believe. Whosoever believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live. ( didn't see no water baptism there at all). I could list many many such Scriptures but it would be to no avail. BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

You can twist, add and subtract the Scriptures all you want but you will only get your answer. I want God's answer. I see you put (water) by the ones that says Spirit.

 

[Chemnitz]

I see you put (water) by the ones that says Spirit.

Where did mman do that? In all of the passages he only put water by baptism not by Spirit.

Since my previous post seems to have been lost in the shuffle I will repost it.

True teaching and Baptism are closely linked as evidence to how Jesus told us disciples are made, however that does not negate what was revealed through the apostles concerning Baptism in that it is the means by which we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ and gives us the means by which to have a clean conscience.

Your suggestion to baptise indiscriminately is absurd for doing such seperates it from teaching. Having said that baptism are no less valid, we just would not be doing them any favors by not insuring that that faith has a chance to grow through teaching.

 

[Brother Bob]

Water baptism is for the saved, not to save them. Holy Ghost baptism is to save them and keep them.

Acts, chapter 2
"21": And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts, chapter 2
"47": Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Kinda leaves you out of it don't you think?

Romans, chapter 10
"13": For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Luke, chapter 7
"50": And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke, chapter 8
"12": Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke, chapter 18
"42": And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

John, chapter 10
"9": I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians, chapter 3
"15": If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"1": Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

"2": By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I wanted to quote the following Scripture too just so you know I do believe in baptism. None of the above mention anything about "water".

Mark, chapter 16

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Chemnitz]

Those are all great passages, but they have nothing to do with Baptism, so they really have no point in this discussion.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Well if you don't accept the fact that water baptism does not save you then you have to believe that Eph is talking about the Holy Ghost baptism, which is a Spiritual baptism. But I see that you do accept that the water saves you so we are worlds apart and if I believed the natural water baptism saves I would gather all my children and the neighbors children and stick everyone of them under the water.

[/b]

Amen!
I didn't know so many people misunderstand " Being Born Again by Water and Holy Spirit" as meaning Water Baptism, which is abosulte non-sense.
Water Baptism is just the declaration and confirmation of the True Spiritual Baptism by Holy Spirit(=Being Born Again by Holy Spirit), and this water baptism is an important momentum for the believers to grow in faith. However it doesn't mean that Water Baptism saves people. Water Baptism is and should be conducted only unto the already born-again person.

Good choices of Bible Verses!

 

[D28guy]

Chemnitz,

"Those are all great passages, but they have nothing to do with Baptism,..."

Thats Bobs whole point.

"...so they really have no point in this discussion."

They are VERY applicable to this discussion.

Bob is showing that we are added to the body of Christ by faith alone. We do not "encounter the blood", of "access the blood" or anything else through water baptism. We access all that Christ is regarding our salvation through faith alone, as Bobs scriptures show.

Cornelius and his family were indwelt by and sealed by the Holy Spirit as they were sitting their listening to the message. Faith alone.

Peter than said...

"Who can forbid water, that these should be baptised, seeing that they have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Hope that helps,

Mike

 

[tragic_pizza]

"Claim," not "clame."

C L A I M

Argh.

 

[D28guy]

Oh, c'mon now.

Dont the spelling police have other things to do?

Mike

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Oh, c'mon now.

Dont the spelling police have other things to do?

Mike

Every time I try to take the subject seriously, I think, "'Clame?' Come on, now." and I can't take it seriously.

And no, I have nothing else to do.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Those are all great passages, but they have nothing to do with Baptism, so they really have no point in this discussion.

As Mike pointed out - Bob's list points to "When" and "how" a person is saved. This "gets to the point" of whether the person is saved "when the magical waters of baptism touch the flesh and - Mark the Soul - in holy sacrament" or the person is saved "by the Appeal to God for a Clean heart" Long BEFORE the actual "act" of Baptism.

I agree with Mike - this was obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

MMan said
I Pet 3:21 says something saves us. What is it?
I can prove through the scriptures that the answer to each of these is water baptism.

This would have been a good time to go into 1Peter 3 "in detail" and compare it to Romans 10. They both "agree" completely!!

1 Peter 3
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

 

[Claudia_T]

I wonder what it means when it says "An appeal to God for a good conscience"

 

[Claudia_T]

Ex:30:29: And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.

Lev:6:27: Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

I always wondered if these kinds of verses is where people got the idea that if you get baptised it automatically makes you holy, like holy water sprinkled on you..

dont mind me, Im just talking to myself

 

[Eliyahu]

About those 2 verses I learned from Messianic Jews recently.

They are very much important to know, because they are talking about Jesus Christ and His crucifixion.

Exod 30:29 for example, The altar of burnt offering symbolizes the Cross of Jesus Christ. Whosoever accept it is saved.
" thou sanctify them, that they may be most holy"
Most holy is translated from Kodesh Kodeshim which means Holy of Holies.

Lev 6:27
"whosoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy"
This has to be read together from verse 25.
Again you can notice "it is most holy"

There, we find Kodesh Kodeshim for Most Holy.

We know that Holy of Holies could be entered only once a year, only by High Priest, even not without the Blood, on the Day of Atonement which means Yom Kipur, which symbolizes the atonement by Jesus Christ.

This is mentioned by Paul in Romans 3:25 as Propitiation but the better translation may be
"Mercy Seat or Place of Atonement". The Greek word behind is Hilasterion which is found in Heb 9:5 as well, because Hilasterion is used for both Rom 3:25 and Heb 9:5 meaning Kapparah ( Place of Atonement, Mercy Seat).

All the time, those Holy of Holies indicate Jesus Christ and His Crucifixion, His Cross, which has the Power of Healing, Power of Redemption and Forgiveness.

 

[D28guy]

Tragic Pizza,

Just had to rib ya you a bit there, friend.

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Eliyahu,

But do those verses I mentioned have anything to do with the idea of a "sacrament
touching you, making you holy, such as baptismal water, etc?

Claudia

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
I will live by the Scriptures as much as God will permit.
Now you say I want to drag the laver into the Holy Place but you are wrong. I think you must believe and be born again which is to receive the Holy Ghost baptism to get into the Holy place. Now the water baptism does not give life but is to answer a good conscious to God and in order to do that you have to have the above for you can not answer a good conscious to God if you have a bad conscious and in order to get the good conscious you have to believe. Whosoever believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live. ( didn't see no water baptism there at all). I could list many many such Scriptures but it would be to no avail. BBob

So you are draging the laver into the holy place, but God said it is at the door.

All the verses you list are in complete harmony with any verse on baptism. The verses you listed do not negate or void the verses on baptism, only compliment them.

Here are some facts concerning baptism.

Preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism, that is undeniable.

Jesus commission included water baptism, which is still applicable today.

There is just one baptism - Eph 4:5

baptism is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38

baptism washes away our sins - Acts 22:16

baptism puts us into Christ - Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27

baptism saves us - I Pet 3:21 - Note: This verse does not say a good conscience saves us!!! If that were the case, Saul (Paul) would not have needed converting because he had a good conscience (Acts 23:1). Baptism is the answer of a good conscience.

Read it, "eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Again, it is not a good conscience that saves, but baptism which is an appeal to God for a good consience!

This is not hard folks. You don't have to twist this at all. Read it for what it says.

How could baptism be an appeal to God for a good conscience.

From this verse, we see the power is not in the water but in God. Baptism doesn't wash sins away like it washes dirt away. If that were the case, we could be dragging people to the water and dunking them. All who when swimming would have their sins washed away. No, baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience.

I am baptized because God said so. When I obey, I can have a good conscience, because I believe God. When I read about baptism, I read that it is for the remission of sins, washes away my sins, puts me into Christ, and saves me.

There is not one verse in the bible that contradicts or voids the baptism verses.

I teach the same Christ that was preached in the first century, which includes instructions for water baptism.

 

[Chemnitz]

If we are going to talk about baptism then we should be discussing from the verses which refer to baptism not some verses that talk about healing because of faith as were posted earlier.
I am still trying to figure out how 1+1=1 and you can't tell me the one is spiritual baptism because just about everywhere Scripture speaks about baptism water is associated with the occasion. Also if the one baptism was only spiritual why would there even be a baptism with water? Why would Christ tell us that disciples are made by means of a water baptism if the "one baptism" is only spiritual?

If you are going to insist on a so called logical progression of a person being saved then you are going to have to say you must baptize first because when Christ gives the commission to make disciples he lists baptism first.