Which do you believe?

[Brother Bob]

Lacy;

Funny Bob how hardly anyone stopped to ponder whether both truths could be true (like 3 &1). Most just ignored the suggestion like it wasn't there and kept bombing away at the other side. They must have a lot of money invested in one school of thought or the other (C or A)

If you read closely the "elect" scriptures you will see who they are to, and the same is true for the freewill.

 

[webdog]

I have a choice to order mustard on my hamburger.
But I hate mustard and will not order it.
It is because it is against my nature to order mustard.
If I did order mustard, they WOULD give it to me.
If someone does choose God, He will grant them salvation. But no one will ever choose God unless He has first chosen them.

Why do you hate mustard? Why do you not order it? Were you born hating mustard...or did you taste it on one occasion and decided you didn't like the taste?
You sound like you were born hating it without ever trying it, which is NEVER the case, even with God.

 

[webdog]

Salvation is a gift. Any person with any kind of common sense would EVER say the person receiving the gift...
A. worked to receive the gift
B. deserved the gift because they accepted it
C. played the same role as the person giving the gift
D. was the cause in the gift giving

 

[webdog]

typo...should have read NEVER ^

 

[Dale-c]

Why do you hate mustard? Why do you not order it? Were you born hating mustard...or did you taste it on one occasion and decided you didn't like the taste?
You sound like you were born hating it without ever trying it, which is NEVER the case, even with God.

I am not sure what this has to do with anything but I have never liked it for as long as I can remember. I have also had it many times.
I have been places recently that got my oder wrong.....guess what? I still don't like it.



You need to quit arguing with the bible, trying to say that a leopard can change it's spots and believe what the bible says.
I can't change my tongue to one that likes mustard, a leopard can't change his spots. an ethiopian can't change his skin and a sinner can't change his heart.

If you believe that a man can change his heart to accept God, you are denying the clear teaching of the Bible.

 

[webdog]

I am not sure what this has to do with anything but I have never liked it for as long as I can remember.

You must have brought up the mustard analogy for a reason, no?

I have also had it many times.

Wait...what? You have had mustard "many times"? So, you weren't born hating it...or unable to consume it? I thought it was "against your nature" to consume mustard? How can one so blatantly do something against their nature like that?

I have been places recently that got my oder wrong.....guess what? I still don't like it.

But "your nature" shouldn't have even allowed it to get near your mouth!

You need to quit arguing with the bible, trying to say that a leopard can change it's spots and believe what the bible says.

I'm arguing your lame analogies...not the Bible.

I can't change my tongue to one that likes mustard, a leopard can't change his spots.

Um, to the first, you are wrong, to the second, you are right.

an ethiopian can't change his skin and a sinner can't change his heart.

Well, with lasers and such an ethiopian can probably change his color (see Michael Jackson), and only Christ can change a sinners heart. This is the drawing spoken about.

If you believe that a man can change his heart to accept God, you are denying the clear teaching of the Bible.

I've never said this. Left to ourselves, we would never do that. We are never left to ourselves, however. Christ is the light that illuminates ALL men. What you do with that is what you are accountable for.

 

[Dale-c]

According to you it was not their choice, it was the Capt's.

It is true the CA say God will not let them. CA says that God refuses to change their heart and without a changed heart, He will not let them. At least stand up for what you preach.

Bro Bob, please tell me what YOU believe.
PLease tell me why YOU believe that some choose to stay and drown rather than to get on the ship?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bro Bob, please tell me what YOU believe.
PLease tell me why YOU believe that some choose to stay and drown rather than to get on the ship?

The choice was taken away by the Capt, he pulled out and left them with no choice but destruction.

 

[Dale-c]

The choice was taken away by the Capt, he pulled out and left them with no choice but destruction.

That is what you believe that God did?
You brought up this illustration as a picture of God and salvation.

So tell me this:
Why do some choose to go to hell?

So you have my point of view as God only choosing to save some from the waters while you have it that some choose to stay and drown by their own choice.
Why do those want to drown?
PLease answer this.
You keep avoiding the question.

 

[Brother Bob]

[That is what you believe that God did?
You brought up this illustration as a picture of God and salvation.

Rom 14:11For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

But yet all will not be able to go to Heaven, now why would they be turned down by God, when they confess His name, and bow to Him?

You said they couldn't confess Him?

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Who are these, if they were in darkness and dead to God, as you say, would not even had a mind to serve Him, you say, if they tried on their own to serve Him?

You need to get on the right side Dale, I sometimes think you want to since your little girl has been born.

 

[Dale-c]

Brother Bob, you are still avoiding my question.
PLease, why do some choose to go to hell?

You need to get on the right side Dale, I sometimes think you want to since your little girl has been born.

Of course I want to be on the ride side.
THat is why I have studied a lot on the subject.
Yes, especially with my daughter.
All the more reason why I trust in God's good grace to save her.
But if you think that is going to want to make me believe that I have to trust her ability to choose, you are sadly mistaken.
I will do my best to teach her, to bring her up with the gospel.
WIth your view, I have to hope that SHE believes. Something that neither of us can guarantee.
From my view, I hope that GOd gives her saving faith.
Either way, we can only do so much. The rest is out of our hands.

Once again my question, please:
Why do some choose to go to hell rather than heaven?

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course I want to be on the ride side.
THat is why I have studied a lot on the subject.
Yes, especially with my daughter.
All the more reason why I trust in God's good grace to save her.
But if you think that is going to want to make me believe that I have to trust her ability to choose, you are sadly mistaken.
I will do my best to teach her, to bring her up with the gospel.
WIth your view, I have to hope that SHE believes. Something that neither of us can guarantee.
From my view, I hope that GOd gives her saving faith.
Either way, we can only do so much. The rest is out of our hands.

Once again my question, please:
Why do some choose to go to hell rather than heaven?__________________

I like my veiw better for your daughter.

Hell? I never knew anyone who chose to go to hell. Why did you chose to believe CA doctrine, and who gave you that choice?

 

[Dale-c]

Hell? I never knew anyone who chose to go to hell. Why did you chose to believe CA doctrine, and who gave you that choice?

Of course not. They don't choose to go to hell because one one of two things:

First maybe they don't believe in hell or Second, they believe they can get there another way other than through Jesus.

Ok, we are getting somewhere.
Next: YOu do believe some people choose heaven, they choose God. That is what you believe correct? They respond to the gospel right?
Why do some people such as you and me respond to the gospel but others do not?

 

[Dale-c]

I like my veiw better for your daughter.

Rest assured that I will do everything I can to teach her the gospel. But in the end, it is God who must draw her.
I must do all that God has commanded me.
Also, I will NOT tell her that she may or may not be able to be saved. She WILL be able to be saved if she believes.
If she believes then we know she is one that God has elected. If she does not then we will know otherwise, or at least not yet.

You say that when a person believes that he/she is then a Christian. I say the same thing.
But I say left to a persons own sinful nature, he would never make the right choice.
You say God leaves the choice up to the person, perhaps with some conviction.
If I have misrepresented you, please tell me.

 

[Dale-c]

Why did you chose to believe CA doctrine, and who gave you that choice?

First, I was not raised with this doctrine, though my parents now believe it as well.
I saw it in the Bible, I studied and I believed.
The only explanation is that God opened my heart to see it, even though I fought with it for several years.
I knew it was in the Bible but I didn't want to deal with it since so many friends did not agree with it.

 

[Dale-c]

By the way, it took some harsh experiences in my life to get me to finally let go and believe.
Did I resist God in the process? You bet I did. But God was gracious and only allowed me to resist so long.
He brought circumstances into my life to where I was forced to deal with it. I was forced to stop riding the fence.

I believe the opening of my eyes to these truths was just as providential as my salvation was.
It was just a part of my growing process.
I am sure that in your many years of ministry there are many areas where you are much more studied than I am.
But I hope and pray that you will never stop learning and you will continue to gain more and more understanding of the character of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

I saw it in the Bible, I studied and I believed.
The only explanation is that God opened my heart to see it, even though I fought with it for several years.
I knew it was in the Bible but I didn't want to deal with it since so many friends did not agree with it.

I can say the same for my belief Dale. Seems to me if you did not have Romans 8 and Eph 1 and 2, you would not have a doctrine and I think you misread those not understanding who they are to. You can plainly see that Paul spoke of the "elect" as being Israel. Also you can see that when he said a man was not saved by works, he meant the "Law" of Israel for he goes on to mention circumcism.

You constantly have to defend against all the rest of the Bible to hold your stance on how you see Romans 8 and Eph 1 and 2.

 

[Dale-c]

You constantly have to defend against all the rest of the Bible to hold your stance on how you see Romans 8 and Eph 1 and 2.

I don't believe so. I do believe in mans responsibility.
Also, elect can refer to different elections.
Not every elected official is elected to the presidency.
Some to other things.

I don't know what to do or say other than to pray that God will open your eyes as well.
Once you see this, the whole bible opens up and you see this everywhere.
I would challenge you to listen to a series called "of God's Decree" by Pastor Arden Hodgens.
It is on sermon audio.
It is very excellent.

 

[Brother Bob]

God Bless Dale-C...... raying:

 

[webdog]

If she believes then we know she is one that God has elected. If she does not then we will know otherwise, or at least not yet.

...and if she doesn't believe, you can know that you love your daughter more than God does...as if she doesn't believe, God hates her, and created her as a vessel of wrath. This is the god of the Bible? You (as a child of God who knows His love) really think you can love your daughter more than God who IS love?!?