Which Mystery Would You Pick?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

they basically refuse the OT prophecies of the First Coming of the messiah and just focus on His second coming as messianic reigning King

If you say so… only the Old Testiment is their Talmud and all the prophets are Jewish …as was Jesus. So you’re saying that their interpretations are wrong,so they aren’t credible. Have you ever attempted to understand the Jewish position on Messiah? Probably not right? Can you speak Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic JF and have you studied with Jewish Rabbis?

 

[JesusFan]

The trinity is God.

Each Person of the Trinity are Themselves, yes

 

[Blank]

Jews on the whole have rejected Jesus as promised messiah due to spiritual blindness, hold that truie messiah when he arrives ushers in messianic Kingdom Age, basic issue is that they do not see first and second coming of messiah, run everything together. God still saves out of israel a faithful remnant unto Yeshua every generation

I'm well aware of that...

Romans 11:13-15,20,25 ESV
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [20] That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. [25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[JesusFan]

I'm well aware of that...

Romans 11:13-15,20,25 ESV
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [20] That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. [25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And then all Israel shall be saved?

 

[Blank]

And then all Israel shall be saved?

Who shall be saved, except the elect?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who shall be saved, except the elect?

Is the correct word “except” or is it “besides?”

 

[Blank]

Is the correct word “except” or is it “besides?”

Except besides, there is no clear winner, besides except

 

[JesusFan]

Who shall be saved, except the elect?

True, but could refer to all saved Remannt Jews in history, saved on spiritual Israel the church, or else all living Jews saved at Second Coming event?

 

[Blank]

True, but could refer to all saved Remannt Jews in history, saved on spiritual Israel the church, or else all living Jews saved at Second Coming event?

Do you want me to choose door one? Door two? Or door three?

 

[JesusFan]

Do you want me to choose door one? Door two? Or door three?

Or could just say "yes, all of the above"

 

[Blank]

Or could just say "yes, all of the above"

Being human and not omnipresent, I could only go through one door at a time.

 

[Dave G]

"The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life"

I don't find it to be a mystery, nor is it a paradox.
Unlike many, I see God's word teaching both.

To clarify:
Man is fully responsible to repent and to acknowledge the Lord in all things, but we won't...
That speaks to our love of sin and complete unwillingness to abandon it.
See Romans 1,2,3 Psalms 10, 14 and others.

God saves those He has written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the world began.
He sent His Son to live, die and rise again for them.
He also works all things... whether they be man's poor choices made from evil intentions, or man's good choices made from what we would consider to be good intentions... according to the counsel of His own will.
He either allows or disallows whatever comes to pass, sponsors or blocks whatever comes to pass, and puts it within the hearts of men to do His will when He so chooses.
He is the Lord, and we are His creation.

We already know the Scriptures that speak of election and God's power.
They've been posted countless times on this site and others, for many years now.

which of these two “mysteries” are you more likely to side with and why?

I side with both, knowing that man's will stops abruptly at the door of God's soveriegnty.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't find it to be a mystery, nor is it a paradox.
Unlike many, I see God's word teaching both.

To clarify:
Man is fully responsible to repent and to acknowledge the Lord in all things, but we won't...
That speaks to our love of sin and complete unwillingness to abandon it.
See Romans 1,2,3 Psalms 10, 14 and others.

God saves those He has written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the world began.
He sent His Son to live, die and rise again for them.
He also works all things... whether they be man's poor choices made from evil intentions, or man's good choices made from what we would consider to be good intentions... according to the counsel of His own will.
He either allows or disallows whatever comes to pass, sponsors or blocks whatever comes to pass, and puts it within the hearts of men to do His will when He so chooses.
He is the Lord, and we are His creation.

We already know the Scriptures that speak of election and God's power.
They've been posted countless times on this site and others, for many years now.

I side with both, knowing that man's will stops abruptly at the door of God's soveriegnty.

Think Judas shows us how both concepts work together, as while Judas betrayed Jesus as he desired, not forced to do such by God, still had been predestined to be the one that fulfilled prophecy one of His own would betray Jesus
And to full free willers, did Saul really a choice to NOT follow Jesus, since Jesus had preselected Him out as an Apostle born out of time?

 

[Blank]

I side with both, knowing that man's will stops abruptly at the door of God's soveriegnty.

I like that.
But maybe God in His sovereign wisdom chose to have man's will remain intact?
Thus maintaining man as a responsible creature liable to judgment?

 

[Dave G]

But maybe God in His sovereign wisdom chose to have man's will remain intact?

It is intact.
We, as fallen sinners freely choose to do what the Lord characterizes as evil...

Time after time after time.

Thus maintaining man as a responsible creature liable to judgment?

Which we are.

 

[Blank]

It is intact.
We, as fallen sinners freely choose to do what the Lord characterizes as evil...

Time after time after time.

Which we are.

How can He judge man if God has foreordained him to perdition. What can man (the pot) say to the One (the Potter) who formed him? (Rom 9:20)

 

[Dave G]

How can He judge man if God has foreordained him to perdition.

I'll answer a question with another of equal weight, my friend...
How can He save one who doesn't deserve it, and condemn another who does?

The answer to yours is Romans 9:14-18, as is the answer to mine:

" What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."

That is the Lord being God, and not someone who can be influenced by the desires of His creation.

 

[Dave G]

What can man (the pot) say to the One (the Potter) who formed him? (Rom 9:20)

Nothing.
We are the clay, and He is the Potter.
Some would say that this makes Him dispassionate...

No, it does not.

He loves His people with an everlasting love, a very personal love;
One so personal that He gave His only begotten Son to suffer, die and rise again for them, to be their ransom, King and High Priest, as well as the first begotten from the dead.
Jesus Christ experienced everything that we, as His people, will go through in this life.
He knows how we feel, and is willing to help in time of need.

But, there are two sides to this, not one;
Election, and man's responsibility to both acknowledge and worship our Creator.

 

[Blank]

I'll answer a question with another of equal weight, my friend...
How can He save one who doesn't deserve it, and condemn another who does?

The answer to yours is Romans 9:14-18, as is the answer to mine:

" What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."

That is the Lord being God, and not someone who can be influenced by the desires of His creation.

I don't see how that answers my question..."How can He judge man if God has foreordained him to perdition.?
I think this comes closer to the answer, not one I like, but it is what it is...

Romans 9:19-21 BSB
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” [21] Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

 

[Blank]

He loves His people with an everlasting love, a very personal love;

So, instead of the world, he loves his elect? I struggle with this part. Can't the non-elect, while being judged, point to the elect and say, "Why am I being judged when I am not elect and do not have your favor?"