Which one was saved, the one taken or the one left?

[Mel Miller]

Ed,

I notice a Pre-Tribber criticizes you for finding
the Rapture in Matt.24:31!! Amazing!!

Your approach to the Rapture, IMO, is totally
off base when you state above that "the sign of
Christ's coming is the tribulation".

Jesus taught that the "abomination in the Temple
will be the sign" of great tribulation. He said
"THE SIGN" of the Presence of the Son of Man
is confined to one of the days AFTER the Endtime great tribulation. You have your signs mixed up and the timing out of sync!! See Matt.24:29-30.

Again, you take truth out of context. Only in
the context of "one of the days after the great
tribulation" will Jesus "gather the elect from
earth to heaven and men will mourn and pray to
escape". Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36.

Here is your quote that is out of context:
_______________________________________________
"It isn't very clear to you, as you have come to a meaning of the words contradictory to logic AND God's meaning. In Noah's day the unjust were left behind to face the judgement of the flood".
________________________________________________

Then you added that the wicked were "left" on
the Day Lot went out of Sodom. You failed to
mention that it was Lot's WIFE who was left
as a pillar of salt.

Is it "logical" that Lot's wife was "left" because she had no choice like the wicked? NO, there is a choice for those who are NOT wicked; but who are allowed just moments to "remember Lot's wife" and if they are willing to die, will be KEPT ALIVE." It is the one who chooses LIFE by being willing to Die who is Kept Alive ("preserved" from death). Luke 17:32-33.

You miss Jesus' whole point that the one who is
LEFT will be saved ... by your having claimed the one who is UNJUST will be Left.

It is on the last day that the FINAL CHOICE for everyone will determine whether he is taken or left. It is after Christ gathers all the Elect from earth to heaven that men will "mourn and
pray to escape and to stand before the Son of
Man". Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36. That's the context for the Rapture after the tribulation.

They must choose whether they will be TAKEN or LEFT when ALL the Saints are being "gathered out of all the extremities of the heavenS" unto Christ. Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1 (episunago or
episunagog in both cases)!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

"38": For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
"39": And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
"40": Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
"41": Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Which one was saved, the one taken or the one left?

Define "saved".
Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

Actually I defined 'just' and figured out you could figure the
unjust are the unsaved.

Ed, I agree with you on many counts, but becoming just is a process; it's works. Our spiritual salvation is not based upon works.

I do think the difference between who is taken and who is left is the difference between the just and the unjust, but not necessarily between the saved and the unsaved.

There are many saved people (believe upon the Lord Jesus) who are not just (righteous).

Luke 1:6 tells us why Zechariah and Elizabeth were considered righteous (just): They walked in the commandments of the Lord. That's not how one is spiritually saved, but it's how one is found righteous.

You don't have to endure (works) to remain spiritually saved; but you do have to endure if you want to be found righteous.

 

[Frenchy]

There are many saved people (believe upon the Lord Jesus) who are not just (righteous).

Yes and No, in ourselves no one is just even those who you think are. Ish 64:6 "ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags" (menstural rags)Romans 3:10 "There is NONE righteous no not one".

But when one receives Christ they receieve HIS righteousness and are now JUSTIFIED before God.
So the SAVED are righteous
and the UNSAVED are not. Period!

Those who were taken out in the ark were SAVED those left behind were NOT. Those who were taken out of Sodom and Gamorah were SAVED those left behind were NOT.

 

[Frenchy]

Matthew 13:49 in the King James version would be correct.

13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

More than likely refering to the end of the tribulation period, not before.

 

[Hope of Glory]

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

"Justified" is a present, passive, indicative. Justification is a process; it's not something that is automatically imputed to you upon accepting the free gift of spiritual salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Saved is the righteous and sorry Frenchy but:
"38": For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
"39": And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Those that were taken knew not until the flood came but Noah did believe God and knew His word was true that is why he "built the ark"

 

[Frenchy]

Rom. 3:20, and "for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28), and "For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Rom. 4:3), and "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1), and "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).


In James it says, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24) and " . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).

James is examining the TWO kinds of faith, one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive,hence, "FAITH without works is dead." James 2:20

In the middle of the section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well, the demons also believe and tremble, and shudder" see the demons believe in God, that is they have faith, but the faith they have is DEAD. It doesn't result in appropiate works. their faith is only a mental acknowledgement of Gods existence.

True saving FAITH will produce WORKS!

[ March 15, 2006, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

[Brother Bob]

EdSutton says
Define "saved".
Ed

Saved from the wrath of God or eternal punishment.

In Noah's case:
Saved from the flood.

 

[Frenchy]

Brother Bob i guess the problem would be semantics, on the meaning "Taken Away". Noah and his family were taken away in the ark, the people left behind were "Taken Away" by the flood, so which was taken away. both were! that isn't the point, the point is Noah and his family were a picture of those who were saved, thsoe left behind are a picture of the world the unsaved. Bottom line!

There will be two comming of the Lord one to take those who are his home in the air, before the tribualtion and when he comes back at the end of the tribulation, to bind Satan.

 

[Frenchy]

Saved from the wrath of God or eternal punishment

BOTH !!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Frenchy:
BOTH !!!
I said both

seems to me we are just walking on each other here. I agree Noah was the saved. I suppose the lost were taken before the ark even raised is my point Frenchy and I honestly believe the Lord was telling us just that.

You spoke of the avenging angel coming and taking away the wicked unto eternal punishment and that is what I am trying to say about Noah and the flood.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Saved is the righteous and sorry Frenchy but:
"38": For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
"39": And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Those that were taken knew not until the flood came but Noah did believe God and knew His word was true that is why he "built the ark"

This is speaking of the unexpectedness of Christ's return.

 

[Frenchy]

Brother Bob quote

I suppose the lost were taken before the ark even raised is my point

Good one i didn't think of that

Webdog quote

This is speaking of the unexpectedness of Christ's return.

that is what I was thinking i am still a bit shakey on all the meanings of the ends times, but we are pre tribbers.

[ March 15, 2006, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

[Brother Bob]

I suppose the lost were taken before the ark even raised is my point


Is my quote Frenchy but sure Webdog may go along with it.

 

[Frenchy]

Hows that Brother Bob i fixed it, blushing

 

[Brother Bob]

You know I guess I will start a wild fire here, but I believe the Tribulations and the Wrath of God are two different things. I really believe we are very close to the Tribulations for all is left is the desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet and the number is getting smaller and smaller of those who are turning to the Lord.
"Here we go again."

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Rom. 3:20, and "for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28), and "For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Rom. 4:3), and "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1), and "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).


In James it says, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24) and " . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).

James is examining the TWO kinds of faith, one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive,hence, "FAITH without works is dead." James 2:20

In the middle of the section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well, the demons also believe and tremble, and shudder" see the demons believe in God, that is they have faith, but the faith they have is DEAD. It doesn't result in appropiate works. their faith is only a mental acknowledgement of Gods existence.

True saving FAITH will produce WORKS!

With all due respect, I suggest this is either very poor exegesis of vs. 19, or wonderful eisegesis of the same verse. Read the verse again to see exactly what they believe.
Ed.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:

You know I guess I will start a wild fire here, but I believe the Tribulations and the Wrath of God are two different things. I really believe we are very close to the Tribulations for all is left is the desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet and the number is getting smaller and smaller of those who are turning to the Lord.
"Here we go again."

Don't know about "Here we go again.", but I'd suggest "the number of those who are turning to the Lord" is actually getting larger and larger, simply because we live in a world with a population that now tops 7 billion. When I first became aware of world population, as a teen, the world Population was 3+ Billion. World Population during Jesus time may have been 250- 300 Million. In other words, the world's population is some 25 times, give or take one or two 'times', what it would have been then. I'd definitely suggest the PERCENTAGE "of those who are turning to the Lord" may well be far less, today.
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
EdSutton says
Define "saved".
Ed

Saved from the wrath of God or eternal punishment.

In Noah's case:
Saved from the flood.

Second question: Where does the word "saved" occur in the passage you cited in the OP or in Luke's relating of the same message?
Ed