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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
In the following verse (Isaiah 53:6) you read the word. “all.” It appears twice: once at the beginning and at the end of the verse. The first appearance speaks to the fact of universal sin. All mankind is lost and in sin. The second appearance speaks to the fact of the sins of the whole world were laid on Christ. Jesus Christ bore and died for the sins of the whole world. His atoning death was not a limited act. His salvation is available to all, but only imparted to those who receive Him by faith.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Only by coming to the Bible with the trappings of logic and human reasoning can Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 2:2, Is. 53:6 be undone and reinterpreted to arrive at a limited atonement.
I have addressed these passages numerous times, as have many others on here. It gets tiresome doing it again and again, and it's pretty obvious you'll never agree anyway.Lou Martuneac said:In post #133, which I repeat a portion of above, I gave Bible reasons why a limited atonement is an extra-biblical teaching and antithetical to Scripture. Thus far none of the pro-Calvinists have chosen to address these passages.
John 3:16, Isaiah 53:6, 1 John 2:2 effectively and completely unravel Calvinism's Limited Atonement.npetreley said:...it's pretty obvious you'll never agree anyway.
Lou Martuneac said:John 3:16, Isaiah 53:6, 1 John 2:2 effectively and completely unravel Calvinism's Limited Atonement.
I know we are never going to agree on Calvinism. I am not trying to settle or win a debate that has been going on for centuries.
My primary goal is to provide the answers to Calvinism for the folks who lurk and read these threads. This way those who may not immediatley recognize Calvinism when they come across it will be better able to recognize the red-flags when they hear or read them.
I strongly encourage people to visit and read Pastor George Zeller's page on The Dangers of Reformed (Calvinistic) Theology.
That link is a main page with several articles that contain additional links to expanded discussions of the problems with Calvinistic theology.
Zeller's articles are fair, documented and answers the issues with Scripture.LM
OSAS? Newp! Every bible version I own has Hebrews 6:4-6 in it, & no attempt at re-defining its words will change its message.
Rippon said:Bill , it's so good to see you again ! Don't be such a stranger .
Bill Brown said:I've been hanging out on the Puritan Board. I had to come back here to get my Baptist fix! :laugh:
Rippon said:Npetreley , you have to get out-and-about more often .
This is true, though many people do not really believe in total depravity the same way we do.IMO the key to the Reformed soteriology (the TULIP) is total depravity. It naturally leads to their ordo salutis of regeneration before faith and monergism rather than synergism.
FA:Faith alone said:IMO the key to the Reformed soteriology (the TULIP) is total depravity. It naturally leads to their ordo salutis of regeneration before faith...
LM,Lou Martuneac said:FA:
You raise an important point, and are right on target. In the Lordship Salvation (LS) debates I addressed this very issue because LS partly flows from Calvinism's view of Total Depravity, which leads to regeneration before faith.
Following is the link to the article I wrote on the ordo salutis as it relates to the Lordship discusssion. It is relevant to this discussion.
Lordship's (Out of Order) Salvation
LM
Hi FA:Faith alone said:LM,
You and I line up on free grace. I think I'm gonna have to purchase your book through Amazon. Only issue I have with it (and your article) is the use of the KJV.
I personally have recently taken to referring to myself as a moderate Calvinist, as Norman Geisler does. Though I imagine that most Calvinists would not accept this position as "moderate Calvinist" if the ordo salutis does not have regeneration prior (logically) to faith.
My view of "repentance" does not align so much with Zane Hodges (head of the free grace movement), though I see him as the foremost exegete of our time. I see repentance as something which can be appropriate for the unbeliever, though I do not see it as "turning from sin." IMO, the focus on METANOIA/METANOEW has to be the mind. To call it "turning from sin" places the focus on our actions.
Gotta go,