White Christianity seething in its own soup.

[church mouse guy]

It represents a redistribution however you label it or dress it up.

Not really. The main reform was to the corporate rate. The cuts for the middle class average $4 a day--not enough for a latte at Starbucks.

 

[Matt Black]

It's a naked redistribution if it's paid for by welfare cuts like Medicare and so called 'entitlement reform' (code for 'we don't like the poor once they're born')

 

[Matt Black]

Forbes was on Dobbs and the video is probably on YouTube. His point is that GOP congressional leadership did not have their act together, hence the haste, and the fact that these tax cuts could lead to more borrowing since there is no reduction in government spending by the swamp. Forbes and Dobbs think alike. Forbes does not bolster the liberal case but the conservative case.

So is it incompetence or malice or a bit of both?

 

[church mouse guy]

So is it incompetence or malice or a bit of both?

Even if there are cuts to wasteful welfare programs, that is not redistribution, as ITL has already told you. In case you don't know on the other side of the of pond, the GOP is divided and people like Dobbs and probably Forbes want McConnell and Ryan removed from leadership. The conservative bloc in the house and senate want spending cuts. Everyone wanted corporate tax cuts to compete with countries like Ireland, which, as you know, has a low corporate tax level. American corporate taxes, as you know, were so high, perhaps the highest in the world, that American goods were not competitive. Already several major corporations gave pay raises or bonuses to their employees. During the Obama years, there were no raises for anyone and it was difficult to find a good job. The Trump boom is like the Reagan boom after Carter went back to Georgia. Christmas was the best in years in that everyone had a little more.

Now the working people will get to keep an extra $4 per day--hardly enough to afford much of anything extra in this expensive economy where so many people refuse to work.

 

[InTheLight]

It represents a redistribution however you label it or dress it up.

Yes, there are a lot of GOPers that are hopping mad that Marco Rubio's tax refund as implemented is a wealth redistribution scheme. The government takes money from the middle class and gives it away to the poor.

 

[InTheLight]

A cut in real terms: yours and Rob's posts just now have confirmed that to me.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you elaborate?

 

[Rob_BW]

It represents a redistribution however you label it or dress it up.

Maybe re-redistribution...

 

[Matt Black]

Even if there are cuts to wasteful welfare programs, that is not redistribution, as ITL has already told you. In case you don't know on the other side of the of pond, the GOP is divided and people like Dobbs and probably Forbes want McConnell and Ryan removed from leadership. The conservative bloc in the house and senate want spending cuts. Everyone wanted corporate tax cuts to compete with countries like Ireland, which, as you know, has a low corporate tax level. American corporate taxes, as you know, were so high, perhaps the highest in the world, that American goods were not competitive. Already several major corporations gave pay raises or bonuses to their employees. During the Obama years, there were no raises for anyone and it was difficult to find a good job. The Trump boom is like the Reagan boom after Carter went back to Georgia. Christmas was the best in years in that everyone had a little more.

Now the working people will get to keep an extra $4 per day--hardly enough to afford much of anything extra in this expensive economy where so many people refuse to work.

Of course welfare is always branded as 'wasteful' by those who don't need it...

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, there are a lot of GOPers that are hopping mad that Marco Rubio's tax refund as implemented is a wealth redistribution scheme. The government takes money from the middle class and gives it away to the poor.

Whataboutism. Not interested.

 

[Matt Black]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you elaborate?

By all means: you and Rob dressed up the downside of the Bill (I presume you therefore admit that there is a downside, otherwise why dress it up?) by saying that, strictly speaking, cuts to welfare programs are not federal income tax rises and neither are state sales taxes. Strictly speaking I suppose you are correct, but all of these are fiscal measures which, taken together, amount to robbing the poorest to line the nests of the richest in society, and therefore all your categorizing and other window dressing won't cover up the foul stench of the net result.

 

[InTheLight]

By all means: you and Rob dressed up the downside of the Bill (I presume you therefore admit that there is a downside, otherwise why dress it up?) by saying that, strictly speaking, cuts to welfare programs are not federal income tax rises and neither are state sales taxes. Strictly speaking I suppose you are correct, but all of these are fiscal measures which, taken together, amount to robbing the poorest to line the nests of the richest in society, and therefore all your categorizing and other window dressing won't cover up the foul stench of the net result.

1. I said nothing about welfare cuts. Even so, cuts are not income tax increases. Sheesh, where do you get this stuff?

2. State sales taxes are paid by everyone. The federal government does not determine state sales taxes. If state law makes a poor person pay the same sales tax rates as the wealthy that does not "line the nests of the wealthy". That's just ludicrous.

 

[InTheLight]

Whataboutism. Not interested.

I identify a specific instance where the poor are being subsidized by the middle class and wealthy as a direct result of the tax reform bill, the exact subject matter we are discussing, and you don't want to talk about it.

 

[Matt Black]

1. I said nothing about welfare cuts. Even so, cuts are not income tax increases. Sheesh, where do you get this stuff?

2. State sales taxes are paid by everyone. The federal government does not determine state sales taxes. If state law makes a poor person pay the same sales tax rates as the wealthy that does not "line the nests of the wealthy". That's just ludicrous.

Thanks for proving my point! Window dressing again.

 

[Matt Black]

I identify a specific instance where the poor are being subsidized by the middle class and wealthy as a direct result of the tax reform bill, the exact subject matter we are discussing, and you don't want to talk about it.

It's not that I don't want to talk about it but rather that it is not germane to the issue of welfare cuts being used to fund tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the wealthy.

 

[InTheLight]

It's not that I don't want to talk about it but rather that it is not germane to the issue of welfare cuts being used to fund tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the wealthy.

I hate to break it to you but the issue of welfare cuts being used to fund tax cuts is a fantasy made up by liberals to scare people.

 

[Rob_BW]

By all means: you and Rob dressed up the downside of the Bill (I presume you therefore admit that there is a downside, otherwise why dress it up?) by saying that, strictly speaking, cuts to welfare programs are not federal income tax rises and neither are state sales taxes. Strictly speaking I suppose you are correct, but all of these are fiscal measures which, taken together, amount to robbing the poorest to line the nests of the richest in society, and therefore all your categorizing and other window dressing won't cover up the foul stench of the net result.

You have a serious misunderstanding about state, local, and federal taxes in this country.

And as far as paygo, if that's your strongest complaint, shouldn’t you wait and see if it actually goes into effect?

 

[church mouse guy]

Thanks for proving my point! Window dressing again.

Sorry, but nothing proves your point. You have failed to show how an extra $4 per day for a working person affects anyone else in American or British society. It is a complete error on your part to say that the $4 per day cuts are being funded by non-existent welfare cuts. Are you trying to out-Herod Herod as your own Shakespeare wrote? The Democrats turned their backs on the working people and left them to fend for themselves. The rural poverty in this country is horrendous. Hillary refused to even visit some of the rust belt states. As ITL says, "..welfare cuts being used to fund tax cuts is a fantasy made up by liberals to scare people." I thought that you are a lawyer.

 

[Matt Black]

So PAYGO doesn't exist then? Just a liberal fantasy?

 

[InTheLight]

So PAYGO doesn't exist then? Just a liberal fantasy?

Sigh. No, but it's why they limited the tax cuts to $150 trillion over 10 years and why the tax cuts are sunset after 10 years. To get around PAYGO rules.

 

[carpro]

I hate to break it to you but the issue of welfare cuts being used to fund tax cuts is a fantasy made up by liberals to scare people.

Leftist fearmongering. Britons buy it every time.