Who are the sheep and the goats?

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
How is hell the lake of fire? Death and hell give up the dead that are in them, and themselves are cast into the lake of fire. Hell is temporary, a prison, lasting only for the duration of its use. No unbeliever goes into the lake of fire until after the millennium.

I think the translation contributed for the misunderstanding:

Rev 20:13 "Death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them"
This should read:
Death and Hades( or Sheol) gave up the dead.

I notice KJV expressed both Hades and Gehenna as Hell, which are different in Greek.

Gehenna : Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark 9:43, 45, 47, Luke 12:5, James 3:6, 2 Pet 2:4


Hades(Sheol) : Waiting Place for the dead people, separated into 2 places, one Sheol for the wicked people, the other for the believers ( also called Bosom of Abraham, Paradise)

Mt 11:23 16:18, Luke 10:15, 16:23, Acts 2:27, 31, Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 14

In the OT, Sheol appears 64 times.


This is a big, big difference.

Hell is empty now, the wicked people are waiting in the Hades (Bad part of Sheol), while Believers are sleeping in the Paradise ( Bosom of Abraham), a good part of Sheol.

 

[Eliyahu]

Returning to OP, Goats are going to Eternal Fire (which I believe is Gehenna), not to the Hades ( where Unbelievers are waiting and will come out of for the judgment).

Sheep are going to the Kingdom of God.

Again, as I mentioned, the discernment is between Sheep and Goats, not between Sheep and Wolves.

Goats are quite similar to Sheep as they don't outspokenly reject the Truth and confess a certain faith in the form of religion, expecially Christian religion, running on the broadway thru the wide open gate. However, their fruits are different from those of Sheep as Mt 7:18-19 said.
They have the form of godliness, but deny the power thereof (2 Tim 3:5)
They do not know they are fake Chrisitans! as the fake Christians do not know they are fake!
That's why they expected they would go to the Kingdom of God, saying " Lord, when did we see thee..." Mt 25:44, which is quite similar to Mt 7:22-23

Do Fake Christians know they themselves are fake? ( I think I have to open up another thread on this)

 

[gekko]

eliyahu said "Hades(Sheol) : Waiting Place for the dead people, separated into 2 places, one Sheol for the wicked people, the other for the believers ( also called Bosom of Abraham, Paradise)"

that sounds a lot like purgatory to me...

 

[Hope of Glory]

At the time of his death, his body went to the grave, his spirit went to be with God, and his soul went to Hades.

The KJV translates a lot of words willy-nilly, and one of those words is "Hades", which is translated as "hell". Because of Catholic dogma, "hell" and "lake of fire" have become synonymous to many people.

Also, Numbers 18:17 tells us, "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD."

I wonder why the Lord would call someone who is going into the lake of fire forever "holy"?

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe the most of the Protestant main stream have the belief and understanding as I mentioned, especially Presbyterians do so.

Robber at the Cross went to Paradise, the believers are sleeping and will be awakened at the time when Jesus comes. (1 Cor 15:20-25)
The time is limited for this paradise as it lasts for some believers until Lord comes, the others until the new millenium finishes.

RC claims Purgatory is the place where the believers are repenting, purged, and their period depends on the almsgiving and the prayers by the relatives left after death. Their destiny is depending on Human works. We know no human works can satisfy God.


Between Paradise and the Hades, there is a big gap as we read Luke 16:26

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

 

[pituophis]

HoG, Who are the cows in the Numbers passage you just referred to?

They are cows. The sheep are sheep. Goats - goats.

But Jesus uses sheep/goats as an analogy for 2 kinds of people (saved/lost) in the NT. There will be a day when the seperation of these will occur (another parable He uses is wheat/tares). The sheep are the elect. They hear His voice and follow Him. The goats are the non-elect. They cannot hear His voice. Christ laid down His life for the...sheep.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by pituophis:
HoG, Who are the cows in the Numbers passage you just referred to?

They are cows. The sheep are sheep. Goats - goats.

But Jesus uses sheep/goats as an analogy for 2 kinds of people (saved/lost) in the NT.

So, you're claiming that God is inconsistent in calling them holy in one place and unholy in another? Sounds confusing.

Originally posted by pituophis:
There will be a day when the seperation of these will occur.

Well, on this we agree. They will be separated.

Originally posted by pituophis:
The sheep are the elect. They hear His voice and follow Him. The goats are the non-elect. They cannot hear His voice.

Well, we also agree on this. The sheep are the elect and the goats are not. But, they are both saved. Although, I would say the goats do not hear his voice instead of cannot hear his voice.

 

[pituophis]

The goats do not har because they cannot hear. The things of God are Spiritually decerned (1 Cor)...The mind of the sinful man (lost=goat & lost sheep until they are quickened by Holy Spirit) is hostile to God...it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so (Rom 8:6-7 = man's depravity).

HoG...I still believe that you are in the wrong frame of context when it comes to the Numbers passage.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
You can word it any way you want to, if your saved you will automatically have works, or if you aren't working your not really saved, or whatever. It means the same thing. You are looking at your works and saying 'my what lovely fruit, I must truly be saved.'

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Is that not exactly what these people here are doing? What about this guy?

Luke 18:11-12
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You ought to pick up your cross daily, but is this what saves you? I hear the Comfort squad on the streets of Fort Worth, and they tell people that salvation is like a parachute, that you have to put the parachute on to really be saved. How do I put it on? How many times do I have to put on the parachute? If I sin, does the parachute come off? If I have to look at anything but the cross of Jesus Christ to know I am saved, I can never know I am saved.

ummmmmmmm it says depart from Me ye that work "INIQUITY"....SIN... BREAKING THE COMMANDMENTS..
thats what the Goats do...they dont love their neighbor!

 

[Eliyahu]

If the goats keep the commandments, do they become sheep?

 

[Claudia_T]

Sure the Goats can change their ways and keep the commandments and become sheep but sheep also rely on the merits of Christ for salvation, so the goats must do that too and only keep the commandments out of love for God and their fellow man.

Jesus says His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him wherever He goes.

In Mathew 25 Jesus talks about the house built on the rock and He said whoever "Hears My sayings and doeth them" are like a house built on the rock. Thats what sheep acts like, he hears the voice of the shepherd and follows Him.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Sure the Goats can change their ways and keep the commandments and become sheep but sheep also rely on the merits of Christ for salvation, so the goats must do that too and only keep the commandments out of love for God and their fellow man.

It is the first time for me to notice a significant problem with your own belief on the salvation.

Can a Bad Tree be changed into a Good Tree by keeping the commandments? Have you read Mt 7?

Isn't that done only by becoming Born-Again?

If the goats are born again, why would Jesus have called them Goats? Then they would be Sheep already,and therefore it matches what I distinguished as
Sheep are the Born-Again believers, Goats are fake Christians, right?

Can Leopard change the color of the skins?

Wasn't the fundamental change required ?

Do you know what is the simple and fundamental teaching of Christianity ?

Are we sinners because we do bad things?

or

Are we doing bad things because we are sinners?


Which is correct ? please tell me!

 

[epistemaniac]

well put Eli... indeed... we sin because thats what we are... sinners... by nature, children of wrath, dead in sins and trespasses...

blessings,
Ken

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Sure the Goats can change their ways and keep the commandments and become sheep but sheep also rely on the merits of Christ for salvation, so the goats must do that too and only keep the commandments out of love for God and their fellow man.

It is the first time for me to notice a significant problem with your own belief on the salvation.

Can a Bad Tree be changed into a Good Tree by keeping the commandments? Have you read Mt 7?

Isn't that done only by becoming Born-Again?

If the goats are born again, why would Jesus have called them Goats? Then they would be Sheep already,and therefore it matches what I distinguished as
Sheep are the Born-Again believers, Goats are fake Christians, right?

Can Leopard change the color of the skins?

Wasn't the fundamental change required ?

Do you know what is the simple and fundamental teaching of Christianity ?

Are we sinners because we do bad things?

or

Are we doing bad things because we are sinners?


Which is correct ? please tell me! </font>[/QUOTE]You dont think that a person who was once dead in trespasses and sin can be born again? That makes no sense to me. Of course GOD changes us, thats not what I meant. The goats can change into sheep! By God's grace, through God's power! I just didnt think I needed to say that, I assumed you'd know thats what I meant. sorry!

To say they cant change is to espouse this idea that God created some people to be lost and others to be saved which isnt biblical

 

[Claudia_T]

Not to mention a goat that changed into a sheep can change back into a goat if he chooses to turn his back on God...

 

[Eliyahu]

So, you may mean goats can be changed to sheep in the morning and the sheep can be changed to a goat in the evening again, next morning, the goat may be changed to sheep again. Maybe you are changing every day and every moment, from sheep to goat and from goat to sheep, how many times have you changed your status?

What if you die in the moment you are just changed to Goat?


There is a fundamental problem with your faith, which needs Healing!

 

[Michaeneu]

The bride is already determined prior to the event in which Yahshua returns.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The bride is made ready upon the earth—to be caught-up in the first-heaven for the marriage where she meets Yahshua before she returns as his army.

“And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” Matthew 25:10

“And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven…. for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints…. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Revelation 19:1-14

In Matthew 25:31-32 the nations are gathered PRIOR to the separation of the sheep. Consequently, the sheep in this context cannot be the bride. The bride accompanies Yahshua from the first-heaven before the nations are gathered to him.

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory…then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory… And before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats…” Matthew 25:31-32

Yahshua declares of OTHER sheep that were not of the fold of natural branches (John 10:16). Clearly he draws from the natural branches and the ETHNOS—two folds—to ultimately reconcile as ONE—also supported by Ephesians 2:11-22.

The sheep of Matthew 25 represent a remnant of ETHNOS that survive “the day of the Lord” and when ultimately judged with the goats at the Great White Throne Judgment receive their glorious estate depicted by John below and Matthew 25.

“AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH do bring their GLORY AND HONOUR into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the GLORY AND HONOUR of the nations into it.” Revelation 21:24-26

The goats represent some of the mortals during the millennium that are ultimately judged wanting as well as those who take part in the final rebellion of Gog and Magog.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
So, you may mean goats can be changed to sheep in the morning and the sheep can be changed to a goat in the evening again, next morning, the goat may be changed to sheep again. Maybe you are changing every day and every moment, from sheep to goat and from goat to sheep, how many times have you changed your status?

What if you die in the moment you are just changed to Goat?


There is a fundamental problem with your faith, which needs Healing!

I had no idea you had the Once Saved Always Saved belief

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
So, you may mean goats can be changed to sheep in the morning and the sheep can be changed to a goat in the evening again, next morning, the goat may be changed to sheep again. Maybe you are changing every day and every moment, from sheep to goat and from goat to sheep, how many times have you changed your status?

What if you die in the moment you are just changed to Goat?


There is a fundamental problem with your faith, which needs Healing!

Well thats YOUR opinion that I have a fundamental problem with my faith.

I had no idea you had the Once Saved Always Saved belief