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Who Are the Two Witnesses of Rev 11?
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
LeBuick said:Look guys, we're all Baptist here, why don't we just appoint a comittee?
:laugh: :applause: :laugh: :thumbs:
Ed
Tom Butler said:LeBuick also raised that possibility that the two witnesses represent two priesthoods, Levitical and Melchizedek. Never heard that before. Can you develop that further?
I forgot that I was looking for the book I once read where the author made a fairly good argument for this theory. It was a number of years ago but I do remember it being a thin, light green, paperback book.
From memory, he contend the witnesses being identified as a candle stick and olive tree were describing priesthood's or methods by which GOD's word has been delivered or witnessed through the ages.
Candle stick = Church = Melchizedek = Eternal Priesthood
Olive tree = Jews = Levitical Priesthood
Melchizedek being the priesthood of Abram, the father of the faith was also the priesthood of Jesus. This priesthood either received it's death on the cross of Jesus or is still being killed to the present day Martyrs. I can't remember...
Levitical priesthood received it's death with John the Baptist who came as a type of Elijah to witnesses the coming of the Son of GOD which should have ended the levitical priesthood and brought the Jews into the eternal priesthood. John's message was also rejected and we all know his fate.
He did more discussion on how each were sent directly from heaven and heralded by an angel of the LORD etc...
That was the gist and pretty much what I remember.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Tom Butler
New Member
Thanks, LeBuick,
It makes some sense. I appreciate your fleshing it out. I think the number of opinions on the identity of the Two Witnesses is now up to 343. And I myself hold five or six of them!!!!!:smilewinkgrin:
Seriously, I continued to be intrigued by John's description. They way I read Rev 11:4, John is not describing one of the witnesses as a candlestick and the other as an olive tree. He is describing each of them as a candlestick and an olive tree. If one buys my current theory that they represent Israel and the Church, then each of them represents both.
And if the view you outlined is correct, then each witness must symbolize both the Melchizidec and the Levitical priesthoods. It messes with my mind. How can they do that?
It's also sorta fun, since you don't have to bet the farm on your view. I let my imagination run wild. Under the Israel-Church scenario, the Anti-Christ demolishes both Israel and Gentile Chrisianity. It's proclaimed on TV, and celebrated worldwide. Just when the celebration reaches its peak, God miraculously revitalizes both. That strikes terror in the hearts of the celebrants, and then God takes the witnesses out to heaven. Oops, do we have a mid-trib rapture here? Aw, surely not.
Not under every other view, seems to me.
See why I said this is fun. You can let your imagination run free, admit it's only in your mind, and nobody will jump on you hard, because, poor thing, he's just not well.
It makes some sense. I appreciate your fleshing it out. I think the number of opinions on the identity of the Two Witnesses is now up to 343. And I myself hold five or six of them!!!!!:smilewinkgrin:
Seriously, I continued to be intrigued by John's description. They way I read Rev 11:4, John is not describing one of the witnesses as a candlestick and the other as an olive tree. He is describing each of them as a candlestick and an olive tree. If one buys my current theory that they represent Israel and the Church, then each of them represents both.
And if the view you outlined is correct, then each witness must symbolize both the Melchizidec and the Levitical priesthoods. It messes with my mind. How can they do that?
It's also sorta fun, since you don't have to bet the farm on your view. I let my imagination run wild. Under the Israel-Church scenario, the Anti-Christ demolishes both Israel and Gentile Chrisianity. It's proclaimed on TV, and celebrated worldwide. Just when the celebration reaches its peak, God miraculously revitalizes both. That strikes terror in the hearts of the celebrants, and then God takes the witnesses out to heaven. Oops, do we have a mid-trib rapture here? Aw, surely not.
Not under every other view, seems to me.
See why I said this is fun. You can let your imagination run free, admit it's only in your mind, and nobody will jump on you hard, because, poor thing, he's just not well.
I believe there were more holes to his theory than that but I do love to openly discuss all views. Plus, I was going from memory so I'm sure I was not completely accurate.
1. The bodies of the witnesses will lie in the street.
2. Mal 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" So we are fairly certian that one of the witnesses will be Elijah. Or was this prophesy fulfilled by John the Baptist???
3. Zechariah 4 gave us vivid discription of the Candle stick and the Olive tree, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth." Is this describing Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration?
[1] And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
[2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[5] Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
[7] Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
[8] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[9] The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
[10] For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
1. The bodies of the witnesses will lie in the street.
2. Mal 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" So we are fairly certian that one of the witnesses will be Elijah. Or was this prophesy fulfilled by John the Baptist???
3. Zechariah 4 gave us vivid discription of the Candle stick and the Olive tree, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth." Is this describing Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration?
[1] And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
[2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[5] Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
[7] Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
[8] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[9] The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
[10] For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
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Mel Miller
New Member
The Two Witnesses
Tom Butler,
We are discussing more than the identity of these two Prophets. That is to be expected by the very nature of their task which they will complete!
You write:
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
If the view one has outlined is correct, then each witness must symbolize both the Melchizidec and the Levitical priesthoods. It messes with my mind. How can they do that?
It's also sorta fun, since you don't have to bet the farm on your view. I let my imagination run wild. Under the Israel-Church scenario, the Anti-Christ demolishes both Israel and Gentile Chrisianity.
_____________________________________________________________
I agree these two represent both the OT and NT members of the Body of
Christ. Their ability to kill anyone who opposes them shows they are MEN
who stand against the Beast (Antichrist). Their triumph speaks of God's
promise to the "people of God" among both Jews and Gentiles.
I see their task as being victorious; not as a time when Antichrist can demolish God's people or diminish their testimony for Christ ... i.e., they
"love not their life unto death". And "Some will not glorify Christ by
tasting death until after the Two Prophets finish their 1260-day task"!!
Rev.12:10-11 fulfills the promise to NT saints (Mark 9:1) and OT saints.
Dan.12:10-11.
What a testimony the Saints reveal in the final 3 1/2 days of "knowing
the Presence of the Lord is Near" ... when "time in no longer" subject to
the countdown of 1260 days! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
Tom Butler,
We are discussing more than the identity of these two Prophets. That is to be expected by the very nature of their task which they will complete!
You write:
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
If the view one has outlined is correct, then each witness must symbolize both the Melchizidec and the Levitical priesthoods. It messes with my mind. How can they do that?
It's also sorta fun, since you don't have to bet the farm on your view. I let my imagination run wild. Under the Israel-Church scenario, the Anti-Christ demolishes both Israel and Gentile Chrisianity.
_____________________________________________________________
I agree these two represent both the OT and NT members of the Body of
Christ. Their ability to kill anyone who opposes them shows they are MEN
who stand against the Beast (Antichrist). Their triumph speaks of God's
promise to the "people of God" among both Jews and Gentiles.
I see their task as being victorious; not as a time when Antichrist can demolish God's people or diminish their testimony for Christ ... i.e., they
"love not their life unto death". And "Some will not glorify Christ by
tasting death until after the Two Prophets finish their 1260-day task"!!
Rev.12:10-11 fulfills the promise to NT saints (Mark 9:1) and OT saints.
Dan.12:10-11.
What a testimony the Saints reveal in the final 3 1/2 days of "knowing
the Presence of the Lord is Near" ... when "time in no longer" subject to
the countdown of 1260 days! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
J. Jump is right on one of the two witnesses being Elijah, IM (not so humble) O.
I believe that Moses is the other. In a sense, the "Mount of Tranfiguration" event is a preview of this, as well, I think. There is a verse in Scripture that speaks something like (I'm not looking it up) : "To the Law and to the Prophets"- If they speak not according to this, it is because there is no truth in them." Who would be a better "Witness" to this, than the 'Lawgiver', Moses, and one of the greatest of the prophets, Elijah, especially given we know that Elijah shall come, yet.
Ed
I believe that Moses is the other. In a sense, the "Mount of Tranfiguration" event is a preview of this, as well, I think. There is a verse in Scripture that speaks something like (I'm not looking it up) : "To the Law and to the Prophets"- If they speak not according to this, it is because there is no truth in them." Who would be a better "Witness" to this, than the 'Lawgiver', Moses, and one of the greatest of the prophets, Elijah, especially given we know that Elijah shall come, yet.
Ed
EdSutton said:J. Jump is right on one of the two witnesses being Elijah, IM (not so humble) O.
I believe that Moses is the other. In a sense, the "Mount of Tranfiguration" event is a preview of this, as well, I think. There is a verse in Scripture that speaks something like (I'm not looking it up) : "To the Law and to the Prophets"- If they speak not according to this, it is because there is no truth in them." Who would be a better "Witness" to this, than the 'Lawgiver', Moses, and one of the greatest of the prophets, Elijah, especially given we know that Elijah shall come, yet.
Ed
If one of the witnesses is moses, then help me here.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So according to this verse, each man will die once.
Josh.1
[1] Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
[2] Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
Now accouding to this verse, the LORD verified Moses was dead. This means he has died once as the bible says we all will do. Now lets look at the witnesses.
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
If one of the witnesses is Moses, this means he will die twice which is contrary to Heb which says we will each die once. Thoughts?
LeBuick said:If one of the witnesses is moses, then help me here.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So according to this verse, each man will die once.
Josh.1
[1] Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
[2] Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
Now accouding to this verse, the LORD verified Moses was dead. This means he has died once as the bible says we all will do. Now lets look at the witnesses.
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
If one of the witnesses is Moses, this means he will die twice which is contrary to Heb which says we will each die once. Thoughts?
With all respect, I think you may be reading (or over-reading) a bit more into this than the Scripture actually says. Let's look at a few more examples. (Underlines for emphasis.)
Let's start chronologically (sp.?) I'll not expound in much detail save for the first one.
Exhibit A. First, we start with Melchizidek. I read that-
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. Heb. 7:1-8 - NKJV
Note this man did not die at all, according to Scripture, but it is said that he lives.
B. How about the church, the Body of Christ, taken at the return of the Lord, as spoken of in I. Cor. 15 and I Thess. 4? As I read this, we who are here do not 'die' physically, at all, but rather are 'changed' along with the resurrected saints- thoise who sleep in Jesus, that 'God brings with him'. [Kinda' knocks out the 'soul-sleep' heresy, in my book, but I ain't here tryin' to derail any thread (whatever that means).] I'd add that this seems to bring together two 'conflicting opinions' on another thread about resurrection of the body, as well. Again, here is a fairly large group, in contrast to an individual, that does not die once, the living saints of the Body of Christ.
C. How about those who are here when the Lord returns at the end of the tribulation, and go into the Millenial Kingdom, after the judgment of 'the sheep and goats' found in Matthew 25:31-45? As I read this, they don't die either.
D. What about individuals such as the son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23), the Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:32-37), Dorcas (Acts 9:37-40), and Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12), to name a few?
Unless one is willing to say that these did not die a 'normal' death, later (which
I'm not prepared to say, since there is no record of such, in Scripture) but rather
were taken, a la Enoch, it would seem that these did die again.
E. And let's not forget the first and greatest 'Baptist' (or at least 'water baptized') sermon preacher in the Bible- all of eight words (Some modern day preachers could learn something here!), preached on a 'street corner' in Ninevah, by one of the most bigoted, hateful, obnoxious characters in Scripture, who only did it to save his own neck a second time, Ol' Jonah. He died in the deep (cried from Sheol- the realm of the dead), and was resurrected, after his body was swallowed by the great fish prepared. He was so bad that his body made the fish sick. But he also shows that with God, you can't keep a good man down. And the Lord was resurrected in accordance with this picture of Jonah- the only sign given. (Matt. 12: 39-40 - NKJV).
Yes, generically and generally, "...it is appointed unto 'men' (not a man - Ed) once to die...". But Scripture seems to give examples of this 'general principle' for mankind being overridden by the Lord and author of this statement for certain purposes, IMO.
F. Oh yeah, one more thing. Last, but not least, is the well known example of Lazarus. I seem to recall something about him being raised from the dead by the Lord Jesus Christ. And it was after four days, to the effect that is was said (paraphrasing very slightly from Old English) 'Lo, he stinketh!' I suggest that attempting to box all Scripture into an interpretation of Heb. 9:27, and decide the identity of the two witnesses based on this specific eisegesis (ignoring that Jesus talked to a dead guy on the 'Mount of Transfiguration', by this interpretation) has a bad odor as well. :laugh: :smilewinkgrin:
Ed
Mel Miller
New Member
Two Witnesses
Ed Sutton,
You make a case for qualified applicants to "stand before the beast"!
There seems to be broad acceptance of Elijah as the OT representative.
John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative.
Two voices, in unison, require that John must "testify again before many
nations and tongues and peoples and kings". Rev.10:11.
I can't see Jesus making a facetious (empty) reference to Peter that John might live until he helps fulfill God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days.
The seven messages that John must yet reveal are contained in the little
scroll which the Mighty Angel told him to eat; that its taste would be sweet in his mouth and bitter in his stomach. And so it was!
These two facts are embedded in a long waiting time before John could fulfill them. He was already nearly one hundred years of age. The wait is required because he was told its contents were "sealed up". Traditionally,
in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!
Then, immediately, John was given a reed to "measure the temple and the altar and its worshipers". Not the temple that had been destroyed 25 years earlier; but the tribulation temple which, for 1260 days, will be under total Gentile authority while they "trample the holy city" under foot!
Just as Jesus spoke of "some standing (t)here who will not taste death,
by any means, until they will have seen God's kingdom coming in power,"
so He ended His ministry to Peter by telling him how he would die; but,
in answer to Peter's sincere question, ALLOWED that John might not die
until He comes to fulfill Rev.12:10-14 ... the same period revealed to
John in Rev.11 for the Two Witnesses ... for "NOW became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ BECAUSE the accuser of our brothers was cast out of heaven", the one who accuses us day and night.
Just as Jesus ALLOWED that John the Baptist was Elijah (in spirit and in power); so He allowed that John the Apostle might be the NT witness.
Eveything in the Revelation contexts fits with the final 1260 days PRIOR to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, coming not only in POWER for 1260 days, but in PERSON on the Glorious Day of the Lord!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Ed Sutton,
You make a case for qualified applicants to "stand before the beast"!
There seems to be broad acceptance of Elijah as the OT representative.
John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative.
Two voices, in unison, require that John must "testify again before many
nations and tongues and peoples and kings". Rev.10:11.
I can't see Jesus making a facetious (empty) reference to Peter that John might live until he helps fulfill God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days.
The seven messages that John must yet reveal are contained in the little
scroll which the Mighty Angel told him to eat; that its taste would be sweet in his mouth and bitter in his stomach. And so it was!
These two facts are embedded in a long waiting time before John could fulfill them. He was already nearly one hundred years of age. The wait is required because he was told its contents were "sealed up". Traditionally,
in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!
Then, immediately, John was given a reed to "measure the temple and the altar and its worshipers". Not the temple that had been destroyed 25 years earlier; but the tribulation temple which, for 1260 days, will be under total Gentile authority while they "trample the holy city" under foot!
Just as Jesus spoke of "some standing (t)here who will not taste death,
by any means, until they will have seen God's kingdom coming in power,"
so He ended His ministry to Peter by telling him how he would die; but,
in answer to Peter's sincere question, ALLOWED that John might not die
until He comes to fulfill Rev.12:10-14 ... the same period revealed to
John in Rev.11 for the Two Witnesses ... for "NOW became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ BECAUSE the accuser of our brothers was cast out of heaven", the one who accuses us day and night.
Just as Jesus ALLOWED that John the Baptist was Elijah (in spirit and in power); so He allowed that John the Apostle might be the NT witness.
Eveything in the Revelation contexts fits with the final 1260 days PRIOR to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, coming not only in POWER for 1260 days, but in PERSON on the Glorious Day of the Lord!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Mel Miller said:Ed Sutton,
You make a case for qualified applicants to "stand before the beast"!
There seems to be broad acceptance of Elijah as the OT representative.
John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative.
Two voices, in unison, require that John must "testify again before many
nations and tongues and peoples and kings". Rev.10:11.
I can't see Jesus making a facetious (empty) reference to Peter that John might live until he helps fulfill God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days.
The seven messages that John must yet reveal are contained in the little
scroll which the Mighty Angel told him to eat; that its taste would be sweet in his mouth and bitter in his stomach. And so it was!
These two facts are embedded in a long waiting time before John could fulfill them. He was already nearly one hundred years of age. The wait is required because he was told its contents were "sealed up". Traditionally,
in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!
Then, immediately, John was given a reed to "measure the temple and the altar and its worshipers". Not the temple that had been destroyed 25 years earlier; but the tribulation temple which, for 1260 days, will be under total Gentile authority while they "trample the holy city" under foot!
Just as Jesus spoke of "some standing (t)here who will not taste death,
by any means, until they will have seen God's kingdom coming in power,"
so He ended His ministry to Peter by telling him how he would die; but,
in answer to Peter's sincere question, ALLOWED that John might not die
until He comes to fulfill Rev.12:10-14 ... the same period revealed to
John in Rev.11 for the Two Witnesses ... for "NOW became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ BECAUSE the accuser of our brothers was cast out of heaven", the one who accuses us day and night.
Just as Jesus ALLOWED that John the Baptist was Elijah (in spirit and in power); so He allowed that John the Apostle might be the NT witness.
Eveything in the Revelation contexts fits with the final 1260 days PRIOR to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, coming not only in POWER for 1260 days, but in PERSON on the Glorious Day of the Lord!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Sorry, I see some "big-time" 'leaping' here (read eisegesis) from Jesus' statement to Peter, to "Traditionally, in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!", to "John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative." The last two 'links' are simply not demanded or suggested, as in "NT Church representative" by Scripture, and I recall a statement once I heard by the late S. Lewis Johnson. "Tradition apart from Scripture, is error grown old." Well said..
Ed
Mel Miller
New Member
Two Witnesses
Ed Sutton,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
Sorry, I see some "big-time" 'leaping' here (read eisegesis) from Jesus' statement to Peter, to "Traditionally, in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!", to "John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative." The last two 'links' are simply not demanded or suggested, as in "NT Church representative" by Scripture, and I recall a statement once I heard by the late S. Lewis Johnson. "Tradition apart from Scripture, is error grown old." Well said..
______________________________________________________________
The Two Witnesses are "Prophets". I maintain that one of them must
represent the NT Church. Jesus clearly allowed that John, Apostle and
Prophet, might live until He comes in Kingdom Power. Jesus had already
taught that "some standing (t)here" (meaning at the time He comes for
1260 days in Kingdom Power thru the two Prophets), "will by no means
taste death until they see that Power already having come" (Perfect Participle).
Your view suggests that Jesus made a flippant statement regarding
John's future ... after revealing that Peter would actually die for Him.
Your view fails to explain when John will "reveal the messages of the
7 thunders" which he was told to seal. Your view gives no significance
to the fact that the voice from heaven joined the Mighty Angel in one
voice requiring John to "PROPHESY again before many nations and
peoples and tongues and KINGS".
My "last two links" are not only "suggested" by Jesus who never spoke
facetiously but also fit the fact that "some standing here" could include
John while at the same time must include more than John (in the context of the final fulfillment of the "NOW of God's Kingdom Power" being fulfilled
for 1260 days.
I see no reason for Jesus to have suggested what the Mighty Angel and
voice from heaven REQUIRES of John ... to prophesy again by reavealing
the content of the messages of the 7 thunders which John digested as
further evidence of a future manifestation!!
Your response, my friend, offers no explanation of the prophesy of
Mark 9:1 and Rev.10:11 and Rev.12:10 which predicts the NOW-time for the "AUTHORITY OF CHRIST" to be displayed by the Two Prophets for 1260 days until they also "must taste death"!
Your objection, IMO, falls flat because the tradition confirms the very
expectations left by link one, i.e., that Jesus predicted Peter's and John's future and by link two, i.e., that the Mighty Angel was sent for the purpose of confirming the word of the Lord by revealing to John that he must prophesy AGAIN ... even before Kings!!
I suggest this needs to be proclaimed as the most likely explanation of Mark 9:1 which has stumped theologions for 100 years! I think the fulfillment of Rev.12:10-14 vindicates these two "links".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
Ed Sutton,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
Sorry, I see some "big-time" 'leaping' here (read eisegesis) from Jesus' statement to Peter, to "Traditionally, in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!", to "John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative." The last two 'links' are simply not demanded or suggested, as in "NT Church representative" by Scripture, and I recall a statement once I heard by the late S. Lewis Johnson. "Tradition apart from Scripture, is error grown old." Well said..
______________________________________________________________
The Two Witnesses are "Prophets". I maintain that one of them must
represent the NT Church. Jesus clearly allowed that John, Apostle and
Prophet, might live until He comes in Kingdom Power. Jesus had already
taught that "some standing (t)here" (meaning at the time He comes for
1260 days in Kingdom Power thru the two Prophets), "will by no means
taste death until they see that Power already having come" (Perfect Participle).
Your view suggests that Jesus made a flippant statement regarding
John's future ... after revealing that Peter would actually die for Him.
Your view fails to explain when John will "reveal the messages of the
7 thunders" which he was told to seal. Your view gives no significance
to the fact that the voice from heaven joined the Mighty Angel in one
voice requiring John to "PROPHESY again before many nations and
peoples and tongues and KINGS".
My "last two links" are not only "suggested" by Jesus who never spoke
facetiously but also fit the fact that "some standing here" could include
John while at the same time must include more than John (in the context of the final fulfillment of the "NOW of God's Kingdom Power" being fulfilled
for 1260 days.
I see no reason for Jesus to have suggested what the Mighty Angel and
voice from heaven REQUIRES of John ... to prophesy again by reavealing
the content of the messages of the 7 thunders which John digested as
further evidence of a future manifestation!!
Your response, my friend, offers no explanation of the prophesy of
Mark 9:1 and Rev.10:11 and Rev.12:10 which predicts the NOW-time for the "AUTHORITY OF CHRIST" to be displayed by the Two Prophets for 1260 days until they also "must taste death"!
Your objection, IMO, falls flat because the tradition confirms the very
expectations left by link one, i.e., that Jesus predicted Peter's and John's future and by link two, i.e., that the Mighty Angel was sent for the purpose of confirming the word of the Lord by revealing to John that he must prophesy AGAIN ... even before Kings!!
I suggest this needs to be proclaimed as the most likely explanation of Mark 9:1 which has stumped theologions for 100 years! I think the fulfillment of Rev.12:10-14 vindicates these two "links".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
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Mel Miller said:Ed Sutton,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
Sorry, I see some "big-time" 'leaping' here (read eisegesis) from Jesus' statement to Peter, to "Traditionally, in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, John never died!!", to "John the Apostle alone stands qualified as the NT Church representative." The last two 'links' are simply not demanded or suggested, as in "NT Church representative" by Scripture, and I recall a statement once I heard by the late S. Lewis Johnson. "Tradition apart from Scripture, is error grown old." Well said..
______________________________________________________________
The Two Witnesses are "Prophets". I maintain that one of them must
represent the NT Church. Jesus clearly allowed that John, Apostle and
Prophet, might live until He comes in Kingdom Power. Jesus had already
taught that "some standing (t)here" (meaning at the time He comes for
1260 days in Kingdom Power thru the two Prophets), "will by no means
taste death until they see that Power already having come" (Perfect Participle).
Your view suggests that Jesus made a flippant statement regarding
John's future ... after revealing that Peter would actually die for Him.
Your view fails to explain when John will "reveal the messages of the
7 thunders" which he was told to seal. Your view gives no significance
to the fact that the voice from heaven joined the Mighty Angel in one
voice requiring John to "PROPHESY again before many nations and
peoples and tongues and KINGS".
My "last two links" are not only "suggested" by Jesus who never spoke
facetiously but also fit the fact that "some standing here" could include
John while at the same time must include more than John (in the context of the final fulfillment of the "NOW of God's Kingdom Power" being fulfilled
for 1260 days.
I see no reason for Jesus to have suggested what the Mighty Angel and
voice from heaven REQUIRES of John ... to prophesy again by reavealing
the content of the messages of the 7 thunders which John digested as
further evidence of a future manifestation!!
Your response, my friend, offers no explanation of the prophesy of
Mark 9:1 and Rev.10:11 and Rev.12:10 which predicts the NOW-time for the "AUTHORITY OF CHRIST" to be displayed by the Two Prophets for 1260 days until they also "must taste death"!
Your objection, IMO, falls flat because the tradition confirms the very
expectations left by link one, i.e., that Jesus predicted Peter's and John's future and by link two, i.e., that the Mighty Angel was sent for the purpose of confirming the word of the Lord by revealing to John that he must prophesy AGAIN ... even before Kings!!
I suggest this needs to be proclaimed as the most likely explanation of Mark 9:1 which has stumped theologions for 100 years! I think the fulfillment of Rev.12:10-14 vindicates these two "links".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
I believe in the context of what was said to Peter and about John in John 21:20-24 seems to be overlooked here, for it seems self-explanatory, to me anyway.
The Eastern Orthodox church notwithstanding, this is what Scripture says here.20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:20-24- NKJV)
Ed
Mel Miller
New Member
Two Witnesses
Ed Sutton,
Thanks for your quick response. I was expecting exactly what you write:
Quote:
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:20-24- NKJV)
The Eastern Orthodox church notwithstanding, this is what Scripture says here.
Amen Ed,
"The saying went out among the brethren", NOT BECAUSE IT WAS FALSE,
but by Divine Inspiration because Jesus had taught that SOME STANDING
(T)HERE MUST DIE ... after they see God's Kingdom Power having come in power! It was John's much later revelation that actually requires their deaths within 3 1/2 days of Christ's return in PERSON !
God providentially presents and preserves the truth; yet wonderfully prepares us in advance to know what to expect.
The entire Book of Revelation centers on the need to be prepared to
"love not their life unto death". That fact is tied to the fulfillment of
Mark 8:38 and Mark 9:1 (which should have been Mark 8:39) and Rev.12:10-11 and Dan.12:10-11. The glory of God is the incentive for their faithfulness and the reward of "serving God and being led by the
Lamb in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
Ed Sutton,
Thanks for your quick response. I was expecting exactly what you write:
Quote:
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:20-24- NKJV)
The Eastern Orthodox church notwithstanding, this is what Scripture says here.
Amen Ed,
"The saying went out among the brethren", NOT BECAUSE IT WAS FALSE,
but by Divine Inspiration because Jesus had taught that SOME STANDING
(T)HERE MUST DIE ... after they see God's Kingdom Power having come in power! It was John's much later revelation that actually requires their deaths within 3 1/2 days of Christ's return in PERSON !
God providentially presents and preserves the truth; yet wonderfully prepares us in advance to know what to expect.
The entire Book of Revelation centers on the need to be prepared to
"love not their life unto death". That fact is tied to the fulfillment of
Mark 8:38 and Mark 9:1 (which should have been Mark 8:39) and Rev.12:10-11 and Dan.12:10-11. The glory of God is the incentive for their faithfulness and the reward of "serving God and being led by the
Lamb in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
LeBuick said:Look guys, we're all Baptist here, why don't we just appoint a comittee?
:laugh: Man, that's funny!!! :laugh:
Off topic!!!
This is off topic, but....
I think I like the name Zerubbabel the best out of any Biblical name. (Not counting the Name of Christ. Duh!!) If I ever had a son, I think I'd name him Zerubbabel. Hmmmm.... Probably why I don't have a son!!!
LeBuick said:[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
This is off topic, but....
I think I like the name Zerubbabel the best out of any Biblical name. (Not counting the Name of Christ. Duh!!) If I ever had a son, I think I'd name him Zerubbabel. Hmmmm.... Probably why I don't have a son!!!
Tom Butler
New Member
My favorite name is Bildad the Shuhite, one of the men who debated Job. Sorta flows off the tongue doesn't it? But I would never give anybody that name. Say it slowly. Bill-Dad the Shu-hite. See what I mean.
Now back to the OP
Now back to the OP
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Bildad was the shortest man in the Bible.
He was only Shoe Height :smilewinkgrin:
He was only Shoe Height :smilewinkgrin:
Ed Edwards said:Bildad was the shortest man in the Bible.
He was only Shoe Height :smilewinkgrin:
LOL, hope he wasn't an athlete.
I like ICHABOD...
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Moses and Elijah
The same 2 people at the mount of transfiguration.
Moses is a type of the ressurected saint
Elijah is a type of the called out saint.
Although it would be great to be/have a BOLD WITNESS for the Lord Jesus Christ TODAY.
Makes you wonder about all that LOVE preaching and teaching you hear in Churches today.
Christ was rejected at calvery and it looks as if 2000 years of HUGS and KISSES didn't acomplish much. People still wont want to hear good preaching from those 2 preachers. What will their Message Be? Find yourself, Share, Cope , everything will be OK? My guess is it will be a message on SIN, JUDGEMENT, and REPENTANCE. thats why they will be killed.
Have a NICE day
The same 2 people at the mount of transfiguration.
Moses is a type of the ressurected saint
Elijah is a type of the called out saint.
Although it would be great to be/have a BOLD WITNESS for the Lord Jesus Christ TODAY.
Makes you wonder about all that LOVE preaching and teaching you hear in Churches today.
Christ was rejected at calvery and it looks as if 2000 years of HUGS and KISSES didn't acomplish much. People still wont want to hear good preaching from those 2 preachers. What will their Message Be? Find yourself, Share, Cope , everything will be OK? My guess is it will be a message on SIN, JUDGEMENT, and REPENTANCE. thats why they will be killed.
Have a NICE day